Re: Layout or data table?

Hi Elizabeth,

I think that your example is the correct formula because each element 
has their proper function.

Best,

/Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo/
Patrono Fundador y Directora General
Fundación Sidar - Acceso Universal
email: emmanuelle@sidar.org
http://sidar.org


El 07/04/2021 a las 20:28, Pyatt, Elizabeth J escribió:
> I agree that they should normally be separate elements, but our JAWS 
> tester complained about lack of headings for multiple tables even when 
> the caption tag was present. She does use headings as a primary 
> navigation cue even when other options are available.
>
> And sometimes sometimes the heading matches the title of the table.
>
> The alternate would be to duplicate the heading and the caption, which 
> in this case, I would believe would confuse sighted users.  Or you 
> could extend the caption.
> <h2>Committee Members</h2>
>
> <table>
> <caption>Committee Members by Role</caption>
>
> Maybe you have another suggestion? I agree that they should normally 
> be separate elements. As I said, there are multiple solutions.
>
> Best
> Elizabeth
>
>
>> On Apr 7, 2021, at 2:09 PM, Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo 
>> <emmanuelle@sidar.org <mailto:emmanuelle@sidar.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Sorry but a h2 for a caption? A caption is not a heading. The caption 
>> element represents the title of the 
>> table:https://www.w3.org/TR/html52/tabular-data.html#the-caption-element
>>
>> If you need a heading you can put it before the table caption.
>>
>> I think that putting a heading as the only content of a caption is a 
>> similar case to using a heading just to get a certain text 
>> appearance. Similar, not the same ;-)
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> /Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo/
>> Patrono Fundador y Directora General
>> Fundación Sidar - Acceso Universal
>> email:emmanuelle@sidar.org
>> http://sidar.org
>>
>>
>> El 07/04/2021 a las 17:34, Louise Lister escribió:
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for all your thoughts on this. So basically you’d end up with 
>>> something like this:
>>> <table>
>>>               <caption>
>>>               <h2>Committee members</h2>
>>>               </caption>
>>>               <thead>
>>> <tr>
>>> <th scope="col">Role</th>
>>> <th scope="col">Name</th>
>>> </tr>
>>>               </thead>
>>>               <tbody>
>>> <tr>
>>> <td>Chair</td>
>>> <td>Mr A</td>
>>> </tr>
>>> <tr>
>>> <td>Treasurer</td>
>>> <td>Mrs C</td>
>>> </tr>
>>> <tr>
>>> <td>Ordinary member</td>
>>> <td>Ms B</td>
>>> </tr>
>>>               </tbody>
>>> </table>
>>> Have I got that right😊? Do you think having ‘role’ and ‘name’ is 
>>> overkill for the information presented? Or is it better practice no 
>>> matter how simple the content? Sorry this is probably obvious to 
>>> some of you!
>>> KR
>>> Louise
>>> *From:*Jonathan Cohn<jonathan.cohn@cambiumassessment.com>
>>> *Sent:*07 April 2021 16:02
>>> *To:*Bristow, Alan<Alan.Bristow@elections.ca>; Pyatt, Elizabeth 
>>> J<ejp10@psu.edu>; Louise Lister<Louise.Lister@iop.org>
>>> *Cc:*w3c-wai-ig<w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
>>> *Subject:*RE: Layout or data table?
>>> I might be in the minority here, but personally I greatly dislike 
>>> overuse of Headings I find on some sites. If there is a H4 / H5 
>>> indicating the start of Officers and the start of Staff members, I 
>>> would be fine with that, but a H2 for each and every staff member 
>>> without extensive information about that staff member 
>>> (address/phone/email) would make me switch my screen reader to 
>>> ignore headings for that Site.
>>> Thanks!
>>> Jonathan
>>> *From:*Bristow, Alan <Alan.Bristow@elections.ca 
>>> <mailto:Alan.Bristow@elections.ca>>
>>> *Sent:*Wednesday, April 7, 2021 10:47 AM
>>> *To:*Pyatt, Elizabeth J <ejp10@psu.edu <mailto:ejp10@psu.edu>>; 
>>> Louise Lister <Louise.Lister@iop.org <mailto:Louise.Lister@iop.org>>
>>> *Cc:*w3c-wai-ig <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>>
>>> *Subject:*Re: Layout or data table?
>>>
>>> I agree with Elizabeth that a heading (H2 etc) should often be used 
>>> also, since sometimes screen-reader users will navigate by heading 
>>> or ask for a list of headings to be read out; in that scenario an 
>>> important table with a perfectly valid CAPTION would not be 
>>> announced since H1 - H6 was not used with the TABLE.
>>>
>>> I had wrongly remembered that headings are not valid inside CAPTION, 
>>> but it looks like in HTML *4* it was not valid
>>>
>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html#edef-CAPTION 
>>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fhtml401%2Fstruct%2Ftables.html%23edef-CAPTION&data=04%7C01%7Cejp10%40psu.edu%7C6c7e258b03864b75579108d8f9f10ff9%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C1%7C637534161050066524%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=90QRRAHlSC2MHnoq7Kg8QMHq8lMXH98WaNGJsNAfKx4%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>> but in HTML5 it IS valid
>>>
>>> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/tables.html#the-caption-element 
>>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhtml.spec.whatwg.org%2Fmultipage%2Ftables.html%23the-caption-element&data=04%7C01%7Cejp10%40psu.edu%7C6c7e258b03864b75579108d8f9f10ff9%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C1%7C637534161050076520%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=xXa3Agi0OnPQ5oOj%2BlyHSPVOQSkAXa1PlfvdyPzY6%2Bc%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>> This approach, use of H2 (3, 5, etc) inside a "heading like tag", is 
>>> also valid and valuable when using the LEGEND tag with FIELDSET
>>>
>>> https://www.accessibility-developer-guide.com/examples/forms/grouping-with-headings/ 
>>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.accessibility-developer-guide.com%2Fexamples%2Fforms%2Fgrouping-with-headings%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cejp10%40psu.edu%7C6c7e258b03864b75579108d8f9f10ff9%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C1%7C637534161050086513%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=cVmV1yukMCJe9D1gNNH4Yx1tpLygflQWB4tVoh3KnXo%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> *From:*Pyatt, Elizabeth J <ejp10@psu.edu <mailto:ejp10@psu.edu>>
>>> *Sent:*Wednesday, April 7, 2021 10:26 AM
>>> *To:*Louise Lister
>>> *Cc:*w3c-wai-ig
>>> *Subject:*Re: Layout or data table?
>>> Louise:
>>> I agree with Alan Bristow that there are multiple ways to present 
>>> the information including as a data table. If it were me, I would 
>>> add a header row at the top for Title, Name and make both <th 
>>> scope="col"> cells.
>>> A <caption> should also be present, but I did have a screen reader 
>>> user comment that they wanted one of the <h> tags  for each table in 
>>> addition to captions. If it's possible to embed an <h2> inside a 
>>> <caption>, that would probably work. You could probably use CSS for 
>>> when <h2> is inside a caption.
>>> Hope this helps.
>>> Elizabeth
>>>
>>>     On Apr 7, 2021, at 9:54 AM, Louise Lister <Louise.Lister@iop.org
>>>     <mailto:Louise.Lister@iop.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     Hello all,
>>>     I hope you can assist.
>>>     On our website we have some tables that contain information on
>>>     committee member names and their roles, so for example:
>>>     Committee members
>>>     Chair
>>>      
>>>     Mr A*
>>>     Treasurer
>>>      
>>>     Mrs Y
>>>     Ordinary member
>>>      
>>>     Mr C
>>>     Ordinary member
>>>      
>>>     Mr G
>>>     Ordinary member
>>>      
>>>     Ms P
>>>
>>>     In this case, the title is a h2 and each role in the left-hand
>>>     cell carries the <th scope> value.  To all intents and purposes,
>>>     we have treated it as a data table, but is it a layout table
>>>     because the information could be presented in linear fashion
>>>     another way? And if so, should it have a role="presentation"
>>>     value in it?
>>>     I feel this is a bit of a grey area between the two and would
>>>     appreciate your thoughts. It reads out fine in NVDA so I don’t
>>>     think it’s an issue, but wanted to make sure we were accounting
>>>     for our tables correctly!
>>>     With thanks
>>>     Louise
>>>
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>>> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>>> Elizabeth J. Pyatt, Ph.D.
>>> Accessibility IT Consultant
>>> ejp10@psu.edu <mailto:ejp10@psu.edu>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>>
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>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
> Elizabeth J. Pyatt, Ph.D.
> Accessibility IT Consultant
> ejp10@psu.edu <mailto:ejp10@psu.edu>
>
> The 300 Building, 112
> 304 West College Avenue
> University Park, PA 16802
> accessibility.psu.edu <http://accessibility.psu.edu>
>
>
>
>
>


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Received on Thursday, 8 April 2021 07:12:16 UTC