- From: Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo <emmanuelle@sidar.org>
- Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 09:10:56 +0200
- To: "Pyatt, Elizabeth J" <ejp10@psu.edu>
- Cc: w3c-wai-ig <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <72b7344b-65dd-5056-3562-48a20c7e4c53@sidar.org>
Hi Elizabeth, I think that your example is the correct formula because each element has their proper function. Best, /Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo/ Patrono Fundador y Directora General Fundación Sidar - Acceso Universal email: emmanuelle@sidar.org http://sidar.org El 07/04/2021 a las 20:28, Pyatt, Elizabeth J escribió: > I agree that they should normally be separate elements, but our JAWS > tester complained about lack of headings for multiple tables even when > the caption tag was present. She does use headings as a primary > navigation cue even when other options are available. > > And sometimes sometimes the heading matches the title of the table. > > The alternate would be to duplicate the heading and the caption, which > in this case, I would believe would confuse sighted users. Or you > could extend the caption. > <h2>Committee Members</h2> > > <table> > <caption>Committee Members by Role</caption> > > Maybe you have another suggestion? I agree that they should normally > be separate elements. As I said, there are multiple solutions. > > Best > Elizabeth > > >> On Apr 7, 2021, at 2:09 PM, Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo >> <emmanuelle@sidar.org <mailto:emmanuelle@sidar.org>> wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> Sorry but a h2 for a caption? A caption is not a heading. The caption >> element represents the title of the >> table:https://www.w3.org/TR/html52/tabular-data.html#the-caption-element >> >> If you need a heading you can put it before the table caption. >> >> I think that putting a heading as the only content of a caption is a >> similar case to using a heading just to get a certain text >> appearance. Similar, not the same ;-) >> >> Best, >> >> /Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo/ >> Patrono Fundador y Directora General >> Fundación Sidar - Acceso Universal >> email:emmanuelle@sidar.org >> http://sidar.org >> >> >> El 07/04/2021 a las 17:34, Louise Lister escribió: >>> >>> >>> Thanks for all your thoughts on this. So basically you’d end up with >>> something like this: >>> <table> >>> <caption> >>> <h2>Committee members</h2> >>> </caption> >>> <thead> >>> <tr> >>> <th scope="col">Role</th> >>> <th scope="col">Name</th> >>> </tr> >>> </thead> >>> <tbody> >>> <tr> >>> <td>Chair</td> >>> <td>Mr A</td> >>> </tr> >>> <tr> >>> <td>Treasurer</td> >>> <td>Mrs C</td> >>> </tr> >>> <tr> >>> <td>Ordinary member</td> >>> <td>Ms B</td> >>> </tr> >>> </tbody> >>> </table> >>> Have I got that right😊? Do you think having ‘role’ and ‘name’ is >>> overkill for the information presented? Or is it better practice no >>> matter how simple the content? Sorry this is probably obvious to >>> some of you! >>> KR >>> Louise >>> *From:*Jonathan Cohn<jonathan.cohn@cambiumassessment.com> >>> *Sent:*07 April 2021 16:02 >>> *To:*Bristow, Alan<Alan.Bristow@elections.ca>; Pyatt, Elizabeth >>> J<ejp10@psu.edu>; Louise Lister<Louise.Lister@iop.org> >>> *Cc:*w3c-wai-ig<w3c-wai-ig@w3.org> >>> *Subject:*RE: Layout or data table? >>> I might be in the minority here, but personally I greatly dislike >>> overuse of Headings I find on some sites. If there is a H4 / H5 >>> indicating the start of Officers and the start of Staff members, I >>> would be fine with that, but a H2 for each and every staff member >>> without extensive information about that staff member >>> (address/phone/email) would make me switch my screen reader to >>> ignore headings for that Site. >>> Thanks! >>> Jonathan >>> *From:*Bristow, Alan <Alan.Bristow@elections.ca >>> <mailto:Alan.Bristow@elections.ca>> >>> *Sent:*Wednesday, April 7, 2021 10:47 AM >>> *To:*Pyatt, Elizabeth J <ejp10@psu.edu <mailto:ejp10@psu.edu>>; >>> Louise Lister <Louise.Lister@iop.org <mailto:Louise.Lister@iop.org>> >>> *Cc:*w3c-wai-ig <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>> >>> *Subject:*Re: Layout or data table? >>> >>> I agree with Elizabeth that a heading (H2 etc) should often be used >>> also, since sometimes screen-reader users will navigate by heading >>> or ask for a list of headings to be read out; in that scenario an >>> important table with a perfectly valid CAPTION would not be >>> announced since H1 - H6 was not used with the TABLE. >>> >>> I had wrongly remembered that headings are not valid inside CAPTION, >>> but it looks like in HTML *4* it was not valid >>> >>> https://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html#edef-CAPTION >>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fhtml401%2Fstruct%2Ftables.html%23edef-CAPTION&data=04%7C01%7Cejp10%40psu.edu%7C6c7e258b03864b75579108d8f9f10ff9%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C1%7C637534161050066524%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=90QRRAHlSC2MHnoq7Kg8QMHq8lMXH98WaNGJsNAfKx4%3D&reserved=0> >>> >>> but in HTML5 it IS valid >>> >>> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/tables.html#the-caption-element >>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhtml.spec.whatwg.org%2Fmultipage%2Ftables.html%23the-caption-element&data=04%7C01%7Cejp10%40psu.edu%7C6c7e258b03864b75579108d8f9f10ff9%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C1%7C637534161050076520%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=xXa3Agi0OnPQ5oOj%2BlyHSPVOQSkAXa1PlfvdyPzY6%2Bc%3D&reserved=0> >>> >>> This approach, use of H2 (3, 5, etc) inside a "heading like tag", is >>> also valid and valuable when using the LEGEND tag with FIELDSET >>> >>> https://www.accessibility-developer-guide.com/examples/forms/grouping-with-headings/ >>> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.accessibility-developer-guide.com%2Fexamples%2Fforms%2Fgrouping-with-headings%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cejp10%40psu.edu%7C6c7e258b03864b75579108d8f9f10ff9%7C7cf48d453ddb4389a9c1c115526eb52e%7C0%7C1%7C637534161050086513%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=cVmV1yukMCJe9D1gNNH4Yx1tpLygflQWB4tVoh3KnXo%3D&reserved=0> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Alan >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> *From:*Pyatt, Elizabeth J <ejp10@psu.edu <mailto:ejp10@psu.edu>> >>> *Sent:*Wednesday, April 7, 2021 10:26 AM >>> *To:*Louise Lister >>> *Cc:*w3c-wai-ig >>> *Subject:*Re: Layout or data table? >>> Louise: >>> I agree with Alan Bristow that there are multiple ways to present >>> the information including as a data table. If it were me, I would >>> add a header row at the top for Title, Name and make both <th >>> scope="col"> cells. >>> A <caption> should also be present, but I did have a screen reader >>> user comment that they wanted one of the <h> tags for each table in >>> addition to captions. If it's possible to embed an <h2> inside a >>> <caption>, that would probably work. You could probably use CSS for >>> when <h2> is inside a caption. >>> Hope this helps. >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> On Apr 7, 2021, at 9:54 AM, Louise Lister <Louise.Lister@iop.org >>> <mailto:Louise.Lister@iop.org>> wrote: >>> >>> Hello all, >>> I hope you can assist. >>> On our website we have some tables that contain information on >>> committee member names and their roles, so for example: >>> Committee members >>> Chair >>> >>> Mr A* >>> Treasurer >>> >>> Mrs Y >>> Ordinary member >>> >>> Mr C >>> Ordinary member >>> >>> Mr G >>> Ordinary member >>> >>> Ms P >>> >>> In this case, the title is a h2 and each role in the left-hand >>> cell carries the <th scope> value. To all intents and purposes, >>> we have treated it as a data table, but is it a layout table >>> because the information could be presented in linear fashion >>> another way? And if so, should it have a role="presentation" >>> value in it? >>> I feel this is a bit of a grey area between the two and would >>> appreciate your thoughts. It reads out fine in NVDA so I don’t >>> think it’s an issue, but wanted to make sure we were accounting >>> for our tables correctly! >>> With thanks >>> Louise >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> This email (and attachments) are confidential and intended for >>> the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient >>> please immediately notify the sender, permanently and securely >>> delete any copies and do not take action with it or in reliance >>> on it. Any views expressed are the author's and do not represent >>> those of IOP, except where specifically stated. 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Received on Thursday, 8 April 2021 07:12:16 UTC