- From: Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo <emmanuelle@sidar.org>
- Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 20:09:09 +0200
- To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
- Message-ID: <77d24831-4c0b-83b5-f8a1-774554f8d15f@sidar.org>
Hi all, Sorry but a h2 for a caption? A caption is not a heading. The caption element represents the title of the table: https://www.w3.org/TR/html52/tabular-data.html#the-caption-element If you need a heading you can put it before the table caption. I think that putting a heading as the only content of a caption is a similar case to using a heading just to get a certain text appearance. Similar, not the same ;-) Best, /Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo/ Patrono Fundador y Directora General Fundación Sidar - Acceso Universal email: emmanuelle@sidar.org http://sidar.org El 07/04/2021 a las 17:34, Louise Lister escribió: > > > Thanks for all your thoughts on this. So basically you’d end up with > something like this: > > <table> > > <caption> > > <h2>Committee members</h2> > > </caption> > > <thead> > > <tr> > > <th scope="col">Role</th> > > <th scope="col">Name</th> > > </tr> > > </thead> > > <tbody> > > <tr> > > <td>Chair</td> > > <td>Mr A</td> > > </tr> > > <tr> > > <td>Treasurer</td> > > <td>Mrs C</td> > > </tr> > > <tr> > > <td>Ordinary member</td> > > <td>Ms B</td> > > </tr> > > </tbody> > > </table> > > Have I got that right 😊? Do you think having ‘role’ and ‘name’ is > overkill for the information presented? Or is it better practice no > matter how simple the content? Sorry this is probably obvious to some > of you! > > KR > > Louise > > *From:*Jonathan Cohn <jonathan.cohn@cambiumassessment.com> > *Sent:* 07 April 2021 16:02 > *To:* Bristow, Alan <Alan.Bristow@elections.ca>; Pyatt, Elizabeth J > <ejp10@psu.edu>; Louise Lister <Louise.Lister@iop.org> > *Cc:* w3c-wai-ig <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org> > *Subject:* RE: Layout or data table? > > I might be in the minority here, but personally I greatly dislike > overuse of Headings I find on some sites. If there is a H4 / H5 > indicating the start of Officers and the start of Staff members, I > would be fine with that, but a H2 for each and every staff member > without extensive information about that staff member > (address/phone/email) would make me switch my screen reader to ignore > headings for that Site. > > Thanks! > > Jonathan > > *From:*Bristow, Alan <Alan.Bristow@elections.ca > <mailto:Alan.Bristow@elections.ca>> > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 7, 2021 10:47 AM > *To:* Pyatt, Elizabeth J <ejp10@psu.edu <mailto:ejp10@psu.edu>>; > Louise Lister <Louise.Lister@iop.org <mailto:Louise.Lister@iop.org>> > *Cc:* w3c-wai-ig <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>> > *Subject:* Re: Layout or data table? > > I agree with Elizabeth that a heading (H2 etc) should often be used > also, since sometimes screen-reader users will navigate by heading or > ask for a list of headings to be read out; in that scenario an > important table with a perfectly valid CAPTION would not be announced > since H1 - H6 was not used with the TABLE. > > I had wrongly remembered that headings are not valid inside CAPTION, > but it looks like in HTML *4* it was not valid > > https://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html#edef-CAPTION > <https://gbr01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fhtml401%2Fstruct%2Ftables.html%23edef-CAPTION&data=04%7C01%7Clouise.lister%40iop.org%7Cd996663c46464e44b0f808d8f9d65904%7C8b8986af18bb4882a149fa5a3dd1f995%7C0%7C0%7C637534046306615394%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=HrdcZUNjwc2MjGsSmnJCFSnRYoXgPE6PnnDgQC6wOqs%3D&reserved=0> > > but in HTML5 it IS valid > > https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/tables.html#the-caption-element > <https://gbr01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhtml.spec.whatwg.org%2Fmultipage%2Ftables.html%23the-caption-element&data=04%7C01%7Clouise.lister%40iop.org%7Cd996663c46464e44b0f808d8f9d65904%7C8b8986af18bb4882a149fa5a3dd1f995%7C0%7C0%7C637534046306615394%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=PBXCz9Weqcm1Ic6ZW0neAV2IJPNqUy03IhOQUcRdu2E%3D&reserved=0> > > This approach, use of H2 (3, 5, etc) inside a "heading like tag", is > also valid and valuable when using the LEGEND tag with FIELDSET > > https://www.accessibility-developer-guide.com/examples/forms/grouping-with-headings/ > <https://gbr01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.accessibility-developer-guide.com%2Fexamples%2Fforms%2Fgrouping-with-headings%2F&data=04%7C01%7Clouise.lister%40iop.org%7Cd996663c46464e44b0f808d8f9d65904%7C8b8986af18bb4882a149fa5a3dd1f995%7C0%7C0%7C637534046306625389%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=zDqvC0FjfgLnfJAZYDVePMyLr2p0%2BZjRsMtiCQ44LwA%3D&reserved=0> > > Regards, > > Alan > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > *From:*Pyatt, Elizabeth J <ejp10@psu.edu <mailto:ejp10@psu.edu>> > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 7, 2021 10:26 AM > *To:* Louise Lister > *Cc:* w3c-wai-ig > *Subject:* Re: Layout or data table? > > Louise: > > I agree with Alan Bristow that there are multiple ways to present the > information including as a data table. If it were me, I would add a > header row at the top for Title, Name and make both <th scope="col"> > cells. > > A <caption> should also be present, but I did have a screen reader > user comment that they wanted one of the <h> tags for each table in > addition to captions. If it's possible to embed an <h2> inside a > <caption>, that would probably work. You could probably use CSS for > when <h2> is inside a caption. > > Hope this helps. > > Elizabeth > > On Apr 7, 2021, at 9:54 AM, Louise Lister <Louise.Lister@iop.org > <mailto:Louise.Lister@iop.org>> wrote: > > Hello all, > > I hope you can assist. > > On our website we have some tables that contain information on > committee member names and their roles, so for example: > > Committee members > > Chair > > > > Mr A* > > Treasurer > > > > Mrs Y > > Ordinary member > > > > Mr C > > Ordinary member > > > > Mr G > > Ordinary member > > > > Ms P > > In this case, the title is a h2 and each role in the left-hand > cell carries the <th scope> value. To all intents and purposes, > we have treated it as a data table, but is it a layout table > because the information could be presented in linear fashion > another way? And if so, should it have a role="presentation" value > in it? > > I feel this is a bit of a grey area between the two and would > appreciate your thoughts. It reads out fine in NVDA so I don’t > think it’s an issue, but wanted to make sure we were accounting > for our tables correctly! > > With thanks > > Louise > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > This email (and attachments) are confidential and intended for the > addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient please > immediately notify the sender, permanently and securely delete any > copies and do not take action with it or in reliance on it. Any > views expressed are the author's and do not represent those of > IOP, except where specifically stated. IOP takes reasonable > precautions to protect against viruses but accepts no > responsibility for loss or damage arising from virus infection. > For the protection of IOP's systems and staff emails are scanned > automatically.. > > Institute of Physics. 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Received on Wednesday, 7 April 2021 18:09:27 UTC