Re: Layout or data table?

Hi all,

Sorry but a h2 for a caption? A caption is not a heading. The caption 
element represents the title of the table: 
https://www.w3.org/TR/html52/tabular-data.html#the-caption-element

If you need a heading you can put it before the table caption.

I think that putting a heading as the only content of a caption is a 
similar case to using a heading just to get a certain text appearance. 
Similar, not the same ;-)

Best,

/Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo/
Patrono Fundador y Directora General
Fundación Sidar - Acceso Universal
email: emmanuelle@sidar.org
http://sidar.org


El 07/04/2021 a las 17:34, Louise Lister escribió:
>
>
> Thanks for all your thoughts on this. So basically you’d end up with 
> something like this:
>
> <table>
>
> <caption>
>
> <h2>Committee members</h2>
>
> </caption>
>
> <thead>
>
> <tr>
>
> <th scope="col">Role</th>
>
> <th scope="col">Name</th>
>
> </tr>
>
> </thead>
>
> <tbody>
>
> <tr>
>
> <td>Chair</td>
>
> <td>Mr A</td>
>
> </tr>
>
> <tr>
>
> <td>Treasurer</td>
>
> <td>Mrs C</td>
>
> </tr>
>
> <tr>
>
> <td>Ordinary member</td>
>
> <td>Ms B</td>
>
> </tr>
>
> </tbody>
>
> </table>
>
> Have I got that right 😊? Do you think having ‘role’ and ‘name’ is 
> overkill for the information presented? Or is it better practice no 
> matter how simple the content? Sorry this is probably obvious to some 
> of you!
>
> KR
>
> Louise
>
> *From:*Jonathan Cohn <jonathan.cohn@cambiumassessment.com>
> *Sent:* 07 April 2021 16:02
> *To:* Bristow, Alan <Alan.Bristow@elections.ca>; Pyatt, Elizabeth J 
> <ejp10@psu.edu>; Louise Lister <Louise.Lister@iop.org>
> *Cc:* w3c-wai-ig <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
> *Subject:* RE: Layout or data table?
>
> I might be in the minority here, but personally I greatly dislike 
> overuse of Headings I find on some sites. If there is a H4 / H5 
> indicating the start of Officers and the start of Staff members, I 
> would be fine with that, but a H2 for each and every staff member 
> without extensive information about that staff member 
> (address/phone/email) would make me switch my screen reader to ignore 
> headings for that Site.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jonathan
>
> *From:*Bristow, Alan <Alan.Bristow@elections.ca 
> <mailto:Alan.Bristow@elections.ca>>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 7, 2021 10:47 AM
> *To:* Pyatt, Elizabeth J <ejp10@psu.edu <mailto:ejp10@psu.edu>>; 
> Louise Lister <Louise.Lister@iop.org <mailto:Louise.Lister@iop.org>>
> *Cc:* w3c-wai-ig <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>>
> *Subject:* Re: Layout or data table?
>
> I agree with Elizabeth that a heading (H2 etc) should often be used 
> also, since sometimes screen-reader users will navigate by heading or 
> ask for a list of headings to be read out; in that scenario an 
> important table with a perfectly valid CAPTION would not be announced 
> since H1 - H6 was not used with the TABLE.
>
> I had wrongly remembered that headings are not valid inside CAPTION, 
> but it looks like in HTML *4* it was not valid
>
> https://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html#edef-CAPTION 
> <https://gbr01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FTR%2Fhtml401%2Fstruct%2Ftables.html%23edef-CAPTION&data=04%7C01%7Clouise.lister%40iop.org%7Cd996663c46464e44b0f808d8f9d65904%7C8b8986af18bb4882a149fa5a3dd1f995%7C0%7C0%7C637534046306615394%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=HrdcZUNjwc2MjGsSmnJCFSnRYoXgPE6PnnDgQC6wOqs%3D&reserved=0>
>
> but in HTML5 it IS valid
>
> https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/tables.html#the-caption-element 
> <https://gbr01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fhtml.spec.whatwg.org%2Fmultipage%2Ftables.html%23the-caption-element&data=04%7C01%7Clouise.lister%40iop.org%7Cd996663c46464e44b0f808d8f9d65904%7C8b8986af18bb4882a149fa5a3dd1f995%7C0%7C0%7C637534046306615394%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=PBXCz9Weqcm1Ic6ZW0neAV2IJPNqUy03IhOQUcRdu2E%3D&reserved=0>
>
> This approach, use of H2 (3, 5, etc) inside a "heading like tag", is 
> also valid and valuable when using the LEGEND tag with FIELDSET
>
> https://www.accessibility-developer-guide.com/examples/forms/grouping-with-headings/ 
> <https://gbr01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.accessibility-developer-guide.com%2Fexamples%2Fforms%2Fgrouping-with-headings%2F&data=04%7C01%7Clouise.lister%40iop.org%7Cd996663c46464e44b0f808d8f9d65904%7C8b8986af18bb4882a149fa5a3dd1f995%7C0%7C0%7C637534046306625389%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=zDqvC0FjfgLnfJAZYDVePMyLr2p0%2BZjRsMtiCQ44LwA%3D&reserved=0>
>
> Regards,
>
> Alan
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*Pyatt, Elizabeth J <ejp10@psu.edu <mailto:ejp10@psu.edu>>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 7, 2021 10:26 AM
> *To:* Louise Lister
> *Cc:* w3c-wai-ig
> *Subject:* Re: Layout or data table?
>
> Louise:
>
> I agree with Alan Bristow that there are multiple ways to present the 
> information including as a data table. If it were me, I would add a 
> header row at the top for Title, Name and make both <th scope="col"> 
> cells.
>
> A <caption> should also be present, but I did have a screen reader 
> user comment that they wanted one of the <h> tags  for each table in 
> addition to captions. If it's possible to embed an <h2> inside a 
> <caption>, that would probably work. You could probably use CSS for 
> when <h2> is inside a caption.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Elizabeth
>
>     On Apr 7, 2021, at 9:54 AM, Louise Lister <Louise.Lister@iop.org
>     <mailto:Louise.Lister@iop.org>> wrote:
>
>     Hello all,
>
>     I hope you can assist.
>
>     On our website we have some tables that contain information on
>     committee member names and their roles, so for example:
>
>     Committee members
>
>     Chair
>
>      
>
>     Mr A*
>
>     Treasurer
>
>      
>
>     Mrs Y
>
>     Ordinary member
>
>      
>
>     Mr C
>
>     Ordinary member
>
>      
>
>     Mr G
>
>     Ordinary member
>
>      
>
>     Ms P
>
>     In this case, the title is a h2 and each role in the left-hand
>     cell carries the <th scope> value.  To all intents and purposes,
>     we have treated it as a data table, but is it a layout table
>     because the information could be presented in linear fashion
>     another way? And if so, should it have a role="presentation" value
>     in it?
>
>     I feel this is a bit of a grey area between the two and would
>     appreciate your thoughts. It reads out fine in NVDA so I don’t
>     think it’s an issue, but wanted to make sure we were accounting
>     for our tables correctly!
>
>     With thanks
>
>     Louise
>
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> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
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> Accessibility IT Consultant
>
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