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RE: How 1.4.4 Resize text applies when mobile templates kick in

From: Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com>
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 19:36:08 +0000
To: IG - WAI Interest Group List list <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Message-ID: <DM5PR03MB2780CB1EECEF985635C7DFC99BA60@DM5PR03MB2780.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
  I agree there is a potential issue.  I think we need to establish if it is a potential accessibility when the zoom if preformed by the end user, or if it is also when the view width is narrowed, and/or both.  Zooming is a common accessibility feature used by many individuals.

When Browser zoom is used both the viewport width and the scale is changed.  This page demonstrates the change in values when you use browser zoom https://labs.ssbbartgroup.com/index.php/Responsive

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
SSB BART Group
jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com<mailto:jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com>
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From: Phill Jenkins [mailto:pjenkins@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Monday, November 07, 2016 1:40 PM
To: Jonathan Avila
Cc: IG - WAI Interest Group List list
Subject: RE: How 1.4.4 Resize text applies when mobile templates kick in

> . . . That's where in my opinion there could be a potential issue.  For example, because I use zoom or low resolution my page is often thrown into a responsive view where content or functionality may be hidden and not reachable in that view. . . "

I agree there is a potential issue.  I think we need to establish if it is a potential accessibility when the zoom if preformed by the end user, or if it is also when the view width is narrowed, and/or both.  Zooming is a common accessibility feature used by many individuals.  However, I'm not sure that narrowing the browser width view is an accessibility feature or function.  Why would a person with a disability need to make the browser view width more narrow for an accessibility reason? I'm not thinking of any other than when the user is wanting to force the responsive design to render the mobile phone narrow view because it is in fact the more accessible (more simple, more conforming, etc.) than the wider desktop view of the responsive design.

I also think this is an example of a potential issue where when the feature is "built in" to the browser for everyone,  everyone may not use it in the same way.  The web site designer is thinking that the better experience is for the end user to see the site be more responsive and render the narrow phone breakpoint view, while the low vision user is just trying to zoom in to see the site better.  Isn't this really a requirement for the user agent (browser) to handle (not the web designer) because each user is different and may want a different reaction to the zooming?  As we say, one size does not fit all.  In other words, some users will want the zooming to NOT trigger the responsive design to kick-in, other users WILL want it to respond at the same zoom and width.  Users may want the experience on some site and not on others BECAUSE it may depend on that site's particular design vs always having the zoom feature trigger it.
___________
Regards,
Phill Jenkins
pjenkins@us.ibm.com<mailto:pjenkins@us.ibm.com>





From:        Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com<mailto:jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com>>
To:        IG - WAI Interest Group List list <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>>
Date:        11/05/2016 02:17 PM
Subject:        RE: How 1.4.4 Resize text applies when mobile templates kick in
________________________________



>  There just have to be WCAG Conforming versions (of mobile and desktop) that have all the content and functionality.

Gregg, yes, and any conforming versions must pass the conformance requirements for alternatives to ensure the alternative page can be accessed.  That's where in my opinion there could be a potential issue.  For example, because I use zoom or low resolution my page is often thrown into a responsive view where content or functionality may be hidden and not reachable in that view.  But the only way to get back to the content is to zoom out as there is no other link to view the other content.   Thus, I am prevented from using browser zoom on a page if I want access to all the same content.  In most cases responsive sites have all the same content and functionality - but it's not a guarantee.  So, my recommendation would be that we provide a note to explain this.

Jonathan

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
SSB BART Group
jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com<mailto:jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com>
703.637.8957 (Office)

Visit us online: Website<http://www.ssbbartgroup.com/>| Twitter<https://twitter.com/SSBBARTGroup>| Facebook<https://www.facebook.com/ssbbartgroup>| Linkedin<https://www.linkedin.com/company/355266?trk=tyah>| Blog<http://www.ssbbartgroup.com/blog/>
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From: Gregg C Vanderheiden [mailto:greggvan@umd.edu]
Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2016 11:22 AM
To: Jonathan Avila
Cc: IG - WAI Interest Group List list
Subject: Re: How 1.4.4 Resize text applies when mobile templates kick in

it is OK to have different version for the mobile and the desktop version.

It is also OK to have different versions of the desktop that have different content.

There just have to be WCAG Conforming versions (of mobile and desktop) that have all the content and functionality.

An interesting question- and one that I think is unanswered - is if you have a complicated web page (say for a desktop) that is fully WCAG conforming,  does the page conform if there is a SIMPLER version (for the desktop) that does not fully conform to WCAG ?    I think the answer is yes.    One would hope the simpler one would ALSO conform - but it is not required.  And one cannot require that ALL FORMS of a page conform or else you eliminate many technologies.



(Note that I did not use the word  "accessible" in the text above.     No website is "accessible" to all.   They can conform to WCAG or to 508 standards or something else - and we tend to call them accessible - but they are not accessible to all.   Just like a ramp that meets ADA is called accessible even though there are many who cannot push a wheelchair up it.   Same for all accessibility standards.  They are minimum standards for accessibility. )

Gregg C Vanderheiden
greggvan@umd.edu<mailto:greggvan@umd.edu>



On Nov 4, 2016, at 11:09 PM, Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com<mailto:jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com>> wrote:

An equivalent alternative here would be to provide a link to the feed on twitter.com<http://twitter.com/>itself. It means an extra click/tap, but users on small viewport would still be able to get to those tweets (just not directly embedded in the page itself).

In order to satisfy the requirement for the alternative to be on the same page I wonder if a pop-up on the same page containing only the twitter feeds with the other content aria-hidden would be a better solution.

Jonathan Avila
Chief Accessibility Officer
SSB BART Group
jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com<mailto:jon.avila@ssbbartgroup.com>
703.637.8957 (Office)

Visit us online: Website | Twitter | Facebook | Linkedin | Blog
Join SSB at Accessing Higher Ground This Month!

-----Original Message-----
From: Patrick H. Lauke [mailto:redux@splintered.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2016 5:31 AM
To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Subject: Re: How 1.4.4 Resize text applies when mobile templates kick in

On 03/11/2016 02:36, Matthew Putland wrote:


Something like an embedded twitter feed could be removed on mobile to
prevent touch-screen users from getting stuck in a massive list of
tweets. Sure, the twitter feed could fit in the mobile viewport, but
it may not work too well on mobile, so they remove it. I never liked
those horrible huge embedded twitter feeds anyway!

An equivalent alternative here would be to provide a link to the feed on twitter.com itself. It means an extra click/tap, but users on small viewport would still be able to get to those tweets (just not directly embedded in the page itself).

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke

www.splintered.co.uk<http://www.splintered.co.uk/>| https://github.com/patrickhlaukehttp://flickr.com/photos/redux/| http://redux.deviantart.com<http://redux.deviantart.com/>
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
Received on Tuesday, 8 November 2016 19:36:46 UTC

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