- From: David Best <davebest@cogeco.ca>
- Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2014 09:56:54 -0400
- To: "'Paul Bohman'" <paul.bohman@deque.com>, "'Kelly Ford'" <kelly@kellford.com>
- Cc: "'W3C WAI ig'" <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <011801cf57e9$64a89500$2df9bf00$@cogeco.ca>
I share Kelly's concern for the definition of accessibility solutions. There is the WCAG accessibility criteria, and then there is the usability. Many consultants, who are not AT users, tend to explain the criteria, but not is purpose and proper usage. Alt Text is one example of the need to understand the usability of a criteria. Another is Region Landmarks, that tend to be overly used and not understood. These are subjective and relate more to the design and branding of the website. As a user, what I prefer is not necessarily right or wrong, but preferred colour and text descriptions will vary widely. This means that IAAP certification must clearly define the definition of "accessibility", and yet leave room for creativity. Certification is more than technical rules/guidelines, and will need to be defined in terms of technical and nontechnical roles. Alt Text tends to be nondescriptive or too verbose, depending upon the user you ask, and some browsers do not use the Long Description; so the purpose must be understood, not just the technical rules. You have a big challenge before you, and will certainly take time to work out. Defining "accessibility" and "best practices" is going to require a lot of use case studies.
David
From: Paul Bohman [mailto:paul.bohman@deque.com]
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 9:59 PM
To: Kelly Ford
Cc: W3C WAI ig
Subject: Re: Seeking feedback on IAAP certification roadmap
Kelly,
It sounds like there is some room for improvement in a few instances of the IAAP alt text. Thank you for pointing them out. I'll pass them on so they can be improved.
Your analysis of the alt text is sound, and you don't have to apologize for critically analyzing the accessibility of the web site of an organization about accessibility.
Your point about alt text being subjective is true too. We haven't written the test yet, so I can't say exactly how alt text will be handled. Our goal is to make the certification exam challenging, but not with trick questions. We want the questions to reflect actual knowledge of best practices. If a question is too subjective, it won't be included in the exam. But there will likely be some questions asking test-takers to judge between good alt text and better alt text. That seems like a reasonable task. It's still too soon to talk about specific exam questions, since the exam doesn't exist yet, but we'll do our best to make the exam a valid assessment, without resorting to trick questions or questions with ambiguous answers.
Paul Bohman, PhD
Director of Training
Deque Systems, Inc
www.deque.com
703-225-0380, ext.121
On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 9:32 PM, Kelly Ford <kelly@kellford.com> wrote:
Hello,
I am asking this question here because I think it is an interesting question related to both the general topic of web accessibility and how certification is to be evaluated. I recognize that alt-text is subjective to some degree but this is the second instance of alt text from an IAAP publication that I find lacking in completeness. And I wonder how certification will handle this sort of situation or about other perspectives.
Visiting http://www.accessibilityassociation.org/content.asp?contentid=163 I find the following alt text for a picture on the page:
“Pyramid depicting the expert, professional and associate levels of certification”
I find the alt text lacking because it gives me no idea of how the pyramid is actually structured in terms of what’ builds on what. And even from a writing perspective what I’m told is at the lowest level of the pyramid by someone who can see, namely associate, appears as the last item in the alt text. Now the text explanation further on would appear to put things in the same order as they are depicted in the graphic. That and my own judgment can likely tell me more about how the picture is structured but in my opinion I shouldn’t be required to do this level of analysis if I’m using alt text as my method of image perception. And an equally valid argument might be made that just from a writing perspective expert is what should appear first.
The first instance of alt text that could have been better,, again in my subjective opinion, happened in the first community update back in December 2013. For reference purposes this can be found at:
http://us7.campaign-archive1.com/?u=c9e95602d3d7209e71c920bfa <http://us7.campaign-archive1.com/?u=c9e95602d3d7209e71c920bfa&id=b3e4fe052c#IntroducingTheIAAPLogo> &id=b3e4fe052c#IntroducingTheIAAPLogo
There is a full article on the new IAAP logo. But again from the alt text or even the article, I’d have little to no idea of what this logo is, what the six colors are and such. Do I need to know this? I’d contend yes in this case for a new logo being introduced yes.
The current alt text related to this logo reads:
"Photo of the IAAP logo" and "Photo of the six-color element that makes up the international IAAP logo”."
Now I was curious what the logo looked like and what the colors were so did email a contact at the IAAP to ask about the logo. This is the description I was provided.
“The logo is simply the letters IAAP in the color blue against a white background. How we show those letters is what we were trying to communicate. The two A’s are connected by a curved line that creates the cross mark for the A’s. This curved line connects the two letters together both showing our goal of providing a place for professionals to connect together and, because the curved line looks somewhat like a bridge, reflecting that this is a pathway towards something new.
The six color element are just six thin blocks of color in a line. The colors used are in this order – red, blue, yellow, purple, green and orange. These colors represent the most common colors used within the flags of our international community.”
I am in no way being critical of the IAAP here. But I tend to be an examples sort of person when it comes to accessibility and am curious how again certification would judge a person’s ability to accurately create alt text from these examples if a certification test got to that level. Imagine for example that a certification question presented these same two situations and asked the person to write alt text and then justify the reasons behind why they chose what they did. Obviously without knowing the intent behind the chosen alt text here I cannot accurately evaluate intent but from a results perspective, were I judging, I’d fail both of these cases of alt text or other method of image description. In the pyramid case because the alt text does not convey enough about the image and perhaps because the text is out of order with the intent of the picture and in the logo case because either the alt text or the article introducing the logo does not give someone who does not see the picture enough information for a new logo.
Again I want to emphasize I am not being critical of the IAAP effort here. In fact I think the industry needs something in this space because I, as I suspect do many others, invest an inordinate amount of time evaluating the accessibility claims of many because far too often reality doesn’t match stated ability. I will also say that any opinions expressed here reflect my personal opinion and are in no way related to any professional employment or organizational membership of mine.
Thanks,
Kelly
From: Paul Bohman [mailto:paul.bohman@deque.com]
Sent: Friday, April 11, 2014 4:09 PM
To: Tony Jasionowski
Cc: David Hilbert Poehlman; Lastort Joanne L [Contractor]; Bob carroll; J. Albert Bowden; W3C WAI ig
Subject: Re: Seeking feedback on IAAP certification roadmap
Many people on this list are accessibility professionals, so the collective group of you are indeed one of the target audiences of the IAAP. In fact, the first certification category that will be developed is in the realm of digital accessibility, so right now you are the main target audience. If the IAAP branches out later (that's not a given), then it will be appropriate to engage with other similar professional groups in those areas.
Paul Bohman, PhD
Director of Training
Deque Systems, Inc
www.deque.com
703-225-0380, ext.121 <tel:703-225-0380%2C%20ext.121>
On Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 6:46 PM, <Tony.Jasionowski@us.panasonic.com> wrote:
Joanne,
I agree with you that IAAP scope is beyond the scope of this list.
Tony
Tony Jasionowski
Senior Group Manager Accessibility
Panasonic Consumer Electronics Company
Two Riverfront Plaza, 9th Floor
Newark, NJ 07102
Email: tony.jasionowski@us.panasonic.com
Tel/Fax: 201-348-7777
From: David Hilbert Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>
To: "Tony.Jasionowski@us.panasonic.com" <Tony.Jasionowski@us.panasonic.com>,
Cc: "Lastort Joanne L [Contractor]" <Joanne.L.Lastort@irs.gov>, Bob carroll <accessys@smart.net>, "J. Albert Bowden" <jalbertbowden@gmail.com>, Paul Bohman <paul.bohman@deque.com>, W3C WAI ig <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Date: 04/11/2014 02:26 PM
Subject: Re: Seeking feedback on IAAP certification roadmap
_____
Perhaps then it is too broad to discuss on this list?
--
Jonnie Appleseed
with his
Hands-On Technolog(eye)s
touching the internet
Reducing technologeyes' disabilities
one byte at a time
On Apr 11, 2014, at 14:13, Tony.Jasionowski@us.panasonic.com wrote:
Joanne,
WCAG only relates to web accessibility and not the many other aspects of accessibility, which I assume IAAP will address and/or certify. It seems the scope of IAAP is intended to be international and cover all aspects of accessibility, which is a real challenge.
Tony
<mime-attachment.jpg>
Tony Jasionowski
Senior Group Manager Accessibility
Panasonic Consumer Electronics Company
Two Riverfront Plaza, 9th Floor
Newark, NJ 07102
Email: <mailto:tony.jasionowski@us.panasonic.com> tony.jasionowski@us.panasonic.com
Tel/Fax: 201-348-7777
<mime-attachment.gif>
From: "Lastort Joanne L [Contractor]" < <mailto:Joanne.L.Lastort@irs.gov> Joanne.L.Lastort@irs.gov>
To: Paul Bohman < <mailto:paul.bohman@deque.com> paul.bohman@deque.com>, " <mailto:Tony.Jasionowski@us.panasonic.com> Tony.Jasionowski@us.panasonic.com" < <mailto:Tony.Jasionowski@us.panasonic.com> Tony.Jasionowski@us.panasonic.com>,
Cc: Bob carroll < <mailto:accessys@smart.net> accessys@smart.net>, "J. Albert Bowden" < <mailto:jalbertbowden@gmail.com> jalbertbowden@gmail.com>, W3C WAI ig < <mailto:w3c-wai-ig@w3.org> w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Date: 04/10/2014 09:37 AM
Subject: RE: Seeking feedback on IAAP certification roadmap
_____
Most countries are aligning themselves with WCAG 2.0 - even the US (at least partially). That should help, if you're going to use any kind of standard.
Thank you for your help,
Joanne Lastort
IT Specialist
508 Program Office (IRAP)
240-613-4681 (new)
TOD: 8am-4:30pm Eastern
IRAP Web site: <http://irap.web.irs.gov/> http://irap.web.irs.gov
Please send all correspondence to *508 ( <mailto:508@irs.gov> 508@irs.gov)
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Bohman [ <mailto:paul.bohman@deque.com> mailto:paul.bohman@deque.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 9:32 AM
To: <mailto:Tony.Jasionowski@us.panasonic.com> Tony.Jasionowski@us.panasonic.com
Cc: Bob carroll; J. Albert Bowden; W3C WAI ig
Subject: Re: Seeking feedback on IAAP certification roadmap
Tony,
I agree that localization of laws is complex, but IAAP is international, so we can't focus only on US laws.
Paul Bohman, PhD
Director of Training
Deque Systems, Inc
<http://www.deque.com> www.deque.com
703-225-0380, ext.121 <tel:703-225-0380%2C%20ext.121>
On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 9:31 PM, < <mailto:Tony.Jasionowski@us.panasonic.com> Tony.Jasionowski@us.panasonic.com> wrote:
Folks,
There is a wide variation between ADA, CVAA and other international accessibility laws, which may not be harmonized. I suggest IAAP should focus onto the U.S., since it may be too difficult to encompass international certification.
Tony
Tony Jasionowski
Senior Group Manager Accessibility
Panasonic Consumer Electronics Company
Two Riverfront Plaza, 9th Floor
Newark, NJ 07102
Email: <mailto:tony.jasionowski@us.panasonic.com> tony.jasionowski@us.panasonic.com
Tel/Fax: 201-348-7777
From: Paul Bohman < <mailto:paul.bohman@deque.com> paul.bohman@deque.com>
To: <mailto:accessys@smart.net> accessys@smart.net,
Cc: "J. Albert Bowden" < <mailto:jalbertbowden@gmail.com> jalbertbowden@gmail.com>, W3C WAI ig < <mailto:w3c-wai-ig@w3.org> w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Date: 04/08/2014 08:05 PM
Subject: Re: Seeking feedback on IAAP certification roadmap
________________________________
IAAP certification is not specific to any law, such as the ADA. It is for accessibility professionals in a variety of accessibility disciplines. Similarly, the IAAP is an international organization, not just for American laws.
It's also important to separate the concept of courses from certification. The IAAP will offer a variety of educational resources and opportunities which can impart the kind of knowledge necessary to pass certification, but the certification itself is an assessment; a test. The idea behind certification is to show that the individual has met a certain level of expertise in the field, according to industry-accepted competencies.
Paul Bohman, PhD
Director of Training
Deque Systems, Inc
<http://www.deque.com> www.deque.com < <http://www.deque.com/> http://www.deque.com/>
703-225-0380, ext.121 <tel:703-225-0380%2C%20ext.121> <tel:703-225-0380%2C%20ext.121>
On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 7:55 PM, < <mailto:accessys@smart.net> accessys@smart.net < <mailto:accessys@smart.net> mailto:accessys@smart.net> > wrote:
when I took the DoJ training back in 1992 they made it very clear that there was going to be no accepted "Certification" for ADA, so wonder how this sits with the DoJ position or has it changed???
and how will it relate to DoJ training courses??
Bob
On Tue, 8 Apr 2014, J. Albert Bowden wrote:
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 19:47:40 -0400
From: J. Albert Bowden < <mailto:jalbertbowden@gmail.com> jalbertbowden@gmail.com < <mailto:jalbertbowden@gmail.com> mailto:jalbertbowden@gmail.com> >
To: Paul Bohman < <mailto:paul.bohman@deque.com> paul.bohman@deque.com < <mailto:paul.bohman@deque.com> mailto:paul.bohman@deque.com> >
Cc: W3C WAI ig < <mailto:w3c-wai-ig@w3.org> w3c-wai-ig@w3.org < <mailto:w3c-wai-ig@w3.org> mailto:w3c-wai-ig@w3.org> >
Subject: Re: Seeking feedback on IAAP certification roadmap
Resent-Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2014 23:48:09 +0000
Resent-From: <mailto:w3c-wai-ig@w3.org> w3c-wai-ig@w3.org < <mailto:w3c-wai-ig@w3.org> mailto:w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
does it cost money to get certified?
On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Paul Bohman < <mailto:paul.bohman@deque.com> paul.bohman@deque.com < <mailto:paul.bohman@deque.com> mailto:paul.bohman@deque.com> > wrote:
Cross posted request for feedback:
The International Association of Accessibility Professionals (IAAP) needs
your feedback on our roadmap for accessibility certification. Here is the
roadmap as it stands now:
<http://www.accessibilityassociation.org/content.asp?contentid=163> http://www.accessibilityassociation.org/content.asp?contentid=163 < <http://www.accessibilityassociation.org/content.asp?contentid=163> http://www.accessibilityassociation.org/content.asp?contentid=163>
We are still in the early stages of designing the certification, so your
feedback is most valuable now, before we commit to a certain path.
Here are some questions to consider as you read the roadmap:
1. What do you think of the roadmap overall?
2. What would you do to improve our roadmap?
3. What do you think of the *levels* of certification outlined in the
roadmap?
4. Are there any broad *Knowledge Domains and Roles* that we have left
off that should be included?
5. Do you like our list of *Digital Accessibility* areas of
certification? Should we add to or subtract from this list? (For example,
one person commented that we should add gaming to the list.)
6. Do you like the idea of certifying for these areas separately, in a
modular approach as we have done? (See the section on *Referencing
IAAP Credentials* for an explanation of how this might work)
7. Do you like the 3 year period for certification? Would you make it
shorter (2 years) or longer (5 years)?
8. What kind of certification assessment would you create? Keep in
mind that it has to be a valid and meaningful test of the right kind of
competencies, it must be challenging enough that novices could not pass it
without first studying or gaining experience, it must be scalable (not too
burdensome to administer or grade/score the assessment), and translatable
into other languages.
9. Once certification becomes available, do you think you would go
through the process to become certified? Why or why not?
10. What else should we consider as we move forward?
To give feedback, you can reply directly to this email, or you can send an
email to the certification committee: <mailto:CC@accessibilityassociation.org> CC@accessibilityassociation.org < <mailto:CC@accessibilityassociation.org> mailto:CC@accessibilityassociation.org>
Paul Bohman, PhD
Chair, IAAP Certification Committee
Director of Training
Deque Systems, Inc
<http://www.deque.com> www.deque.com < <http://www.deque.com/> http://www.deque.com/>
703-225-0380, ext.121 <tel:703-225-0380%2C%20ext.121> <tel:703-225-0380%2C%20ext.121>
--
J. Albert Bowden II
<mailto:jalbertbowden@gmail.com> jalbertbowden@gmail.com < <mailto:jalbertbowden@gmail.com> mailto:jalbertbowden@gmail.com>
<http://bowdenweb.com/> http://bowdenweb.com/ < <http://bowdenweb.com/> http://bowdenweb.com/>
<Jasionowski_Tony.vcf>
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Received on Monday, 14 April 2014 13:57:25 UTC