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Re: Is it a good practice to put <article>s inside <li>s?

From: Userite <richard@userite.com>
Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 16:15:09 +0100
Message-ID: <9C8251DCB2E2483F965C343FA738ABE6@DaddyPC>
To: "Gunderson, Jon R" <jongund@illinois.edu>, "Ian Yang" <ian@invigoreight.com>
Cc: <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Hi,

My understanding of the purpose of the list element is to collect together a 
group or related items (such as phrases, prices, book titles etc.) that 
makes sense within the group context (list) but would not necessarily do so 
alone without additional explanatory text (i.e. include within a 
sentence/article). When my screen-reader announces a list I expect to hear a 
series of short punchy statements, or even just single words, each preceded 
by the announcement of a list item (preferably numbered).  If I heard 
"region" or (in the future) "article"  it would make me think I have missed 
the end of the list. I have not experienced it first hand - but I can 
imagine the confusion!

An article is a stand-alone object, a list item is always part of a 
sequence.  An article has some sense even when read out of context (see 
http://www.w3.org/TR/html-markup/article.html ). Groups of articles can be 
grouped together using the appropriate heading element.  There is therefore 
no reason to group articles using the list element (more appropriate methods 
exist). It is certainly not logical and I am sure it is not semantically 
correct.

Richard


-----Original Message----- 
From: Gunderson, Jon R
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 3:26 PM
To: Ian Yang
Cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
Subject: RE: Is it a good practice to put s inside
s?

Ian,

I don't think that people using AT will expect long passages of text with 
headings and other semantic markup inside a list element, and not sure how 
assistive technologies will interpret this markup either.  I am not sure 
your CSS will be very understandable if you are having to remove list 
styling to make sure bullets are not appearing and margins and headers need 
adjusting.

The <article> right now does not have any semantic meaning for assistive 
technology, so adding the role="region" and aria-labelledby will give users 
of assistive technology a way to find and orient to each article on your web 
page.

Accessible markup should make the page simpler to understand the structure 
of a document not more complicated, putting <article> in lists seems more 
complicated to me and most people will not understand why you are doing 
this, including people with disabilities..

Can you point me to a page where you are using article?

There is a use case for the <article> element and role="article" in nested 
discussion forums, but it did not seem that that was your application.

Jon


-----Original Message-----
From: Ian Yang [mailto:ian@invigoreight.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 9:16 AM
To: Gunderson, Jon R
Cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
Subject: Re: Is it a good practice to put <article>s inside <li>s?

On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 9:26 PM, Gunderson, Jon R <jongund@illinois.edu> 
wrote:
> I would NOT recommend putting <article> inside an <li> element.
>
> I recommended you add a role="reigon" and aria-labelledby attributes to 
> the <article> element to give each article an accessible name and make 
> sure it is a part of landmark navigation:

Hi Gunderson,

I appreciate your help. However, I take HTML semantics seriously, so I think 
elements SHOULD be put inside <li>s if they are apparently a list of items. 
Could you let me know your concern about not doing that?

And could you let me know what are the benefits of using role="reigon"
and aria-labelledby on these <article> elements?


Kind Regards,
Ian Yang 
Received on Wednesday, 1 May 2013 15:15:34 UTC

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