- From: RUST Randal <RRust@COVANSYS.com>
- Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 15:04:02 -0500
- To: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
Rather than continue the infighting, let's look at a practical use of images in a CSS background. Using the CSS-2 Spec, I can apply background images to the link element, thereby creative a rollover menu without the use of Javascript. Here is an example: http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/complexspiral/demo.html Now before anyone goes off on a tangent, please realize that the author of this page, Eric Meyer, created the page strictly to show off some CSS-2 capabilities, in browsers that support CSS-2. I'd like to get some PRACTICAL feedback on this, because in the document that I am writing regarding accessible web pages, this is the method that I suggest for rollovers. I think it works much better than using Javascript. In my document, the technique that I put forth DOES NOT use the image in the background, but the background color changes, so that the user is more aware that there is a link on the menu. Does this technique conform to the WCAG guidelines? Either with or without the graphics. This is a serious question, and I'd rather not get into any conjecture, so please stick to the guidelines, not personal interpretation. Randal Rust -----Original Message----- From: Kynn Bartlett [mailto:kynn-edapta@idyllmtn.com] Sent: Friday, January 18, 2002 2:15 PM To: Charles F. Munat; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org Subject: Re: WA - background-image in CSS At 10:36 AM -0800 1/18/02, Charles F. Munat wrote: >Mr. Randall, when you suggest that some content is really >non-content, you are making a decision for your users, but you are >not making it for *all* your users. If something is non-content, why >include it at all? A good designer would eliminate it entirely. That's not true at all, and you're hopelessly incorrect. I'm amazed to hear this from someone who really should know better. >But by hiding it from non-visual users, you are segregating your >users into two groups -- visual and non-visual -- and you are saying >that this content is for visual users only. No, that's absurd. What you're saying here is that, for example, by posting a decorative image which enhances the site for my users who can see it, I'm somehow segragating users. This is utter nonsense. Here's an example. Let's assume I'm creating a web site about people in wheelchairs. I create a graphic to illustrate an article, which is a picture of someone in a wheelchair. I give this an ALT of: <img src="wheelchair.jpg" alt="Many people use wheelchairs."> What's the purpose of the image? It's merely there to illustrate. This is, according to WCAG1, a good idea -- it lets the user, who can see the picture, know that they're on a page about wheelchairs, for example. This increases accessibility to people who have disabilities. However, by your (faulty) logic, I am also segregating my users. I have made one class who get to see a picture of someone in a wheelchair, and another class who get to see alt text. This is clearly saying "this content is for visual users only", right? Of course, I do have an alt attribute, but note that information got lost. You don't know who the person in the wheelchair is, or what they're doing. You don't know how many are there. You don't know what gender or ethnicity that person is, or what they are wearing. You can't guess at the personal's social class, or age, from the alt text. So, I suppose, I could create a longdesc page for the image. And link it in appropriately with a longdesc attribute. Okay, I do that. So what do I put on the longdesc page? Well, I'm clearly going to have to list all of that information above, right? Because obviously, otherwise, information will get lost, and I will be creating second class citizens -- those who can tell the age of the person, roughly, by looking at the picture, and those who cannot because they only see the alt text and the longdesc. What other details do I include? Should I put the name of the person in the picture? Obviously, if you know the pictured person and can SEE the picture, you will get certain information which I won't get if I know the person and I CAN'T see the picture. I should put the name of the location where the picture was taken, and the approximate date and time. I should put information on the picture size and resolution, because obviously a user with visual ability can see the image size, and the user without does not have access to this information. By not providing this information, I am making two categories of people -- those who get it visually and those who do not! Of course, eventually I'll have to stop, because I'll exercise my own judgment in deciding what is important enough to include in the longdesc and what is not. I'll probably do this based on my own opinion of the function of the image in relationship to the rest of the page. But, wait, you've said THAT's wrong too! Because I am exercising my editorial judgment as the creator of the page in order to discern what the intent is, and how it fits into the page structure. So I am once more being like a 1960s southern shop owner who bans blacks from his shop! Oh dear. Then I read WCAG1 and I figure out that this may just be a decorative image. The real content -- "this is a page about wheelchairs" and "lots of people use wheelchairs" -- is reproduced in text in detail in the rest of the article. And this is just for decoration; just there for the benefit of users who can see it, but not detracting from the usability of the page for those who can't. So maybe I'll just do this: <img src="wheelchair.jpg" alt=""> But wait! That can't be right, even though it makes for a perfectly understandable web page in Lynx and in screenreaders; there doesn't seem to be any major information loss to the primary purpose of the page. But wait! Now, since I no longer have a longdesc or an alt attribute or any of that other stuff I talked about before, the page can't be used for alternate users such as "I want to know where the picture was taken and who is in it!" Oh no! I am such a Nazi! So ultimately I decide, just so that I don't get slammed on WAI-IG or some other mailing list by web accessibility zealots, I'll just remove my image altogether. It's not really _necessary_ after all, since you can get the same message -- the one I intended, which is "this is a page about wheelchairs and people using them" -- from the text. I'm likewise removing all my videos since you can get the same content from transcripts, taking down all my sound files, replacing all images with text descriptions -- long detailed ones! -- because after all...I wouldn't want to make two classes of users. Those who can see images and can use my page, and those who can't see images and can use my page. That would just be UNTHINKABLE. --Kynn -- Kynn Bartlett <kynn@idyllmtn.com> http://kynn.com Chief Technologist, Idyll Mountain http://idyllmtn.com Web Accessibility Expert-for-hire http://kynn.com/resume January Web Accessibility eCourse http://kynn.com/+d201 Forthcoming: Teach Yourself CSS in 24 Hours
Received on Friday, 18 January 2002 15:02:26 UTC