Re: Legal requirements RE: statistics

On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, David Poehlman wrote:

> as I understand and have understood the current state of affairs for
> quite some time, they also provide for backward compatibility.

that is the theory,  actual action is many different things

Bob

> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "RUST Randal" <RRust@COVANSYS.com>
> To: "'Access Systems'" <accessys@smart.net>; "Harry Woodrow"
> <harrry@email.com>
> Cc: "RUST Randal" <RRust@COVANSYS.com>; "'Martin Sloan'"
> <martin.sloan@orange.net>; "'Kynn Bartlett'" <kynn-edapta@idyllmtn.com>;
> "'Denise Wood'" <Denise_Wood@operamail.com>; <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>;
> <charles@w3.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 9:42 AM
> Subject: RE: Legal requirements RE: statistics
> 
> 
> but the W3C recommendations are meant to serve as building blocks for
> the
> future, so that everything is compatible in the future.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Access Systems [mailto:accessys@smart.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2002 9:42 AM
> To: Harry Woodrow
> Cc: RUST Randal; 'Martin Sloan'; 'Kynn Bartlett'; 'Denise Wood';
> w3c-wai-ig@w3.org; charles@w3.org
> Subject: RE: Legal requirements RE: statistics
> 
> 
> On Wed, 16 Jan 2002, Harry Woodrow wrote:
> 
> > Most of this I would find unarguable.  The only point I would make was
> that
> > the user may be using a  screen reader which is not free.
> >
> > However ther probably should come a point where the problem of old
> equipment
> > and software costs ceases to be the responsibility of the designer.
> 
> no old equipment will always be a problem, it is a rolling problem.
> what
> is new today will be obsolete in 3-5 years and new coding etc will be
> happining and folks then will be complaining about the obsolete
> equipment
> then that is new today.
> 
> > This does not mean that it should be ignored.  There should be some
> > mechanism provided somehow to enable the user to gain equitable
> access.
> 
> of course "Define" access.  sure screen readers will improve (I hope)
> but
> what about the people with things like ADD and other focus disabilities
> that can only really effectively use a text based plain screen system.
> 
> that and other reasons will probably mean there will ALWAYS be a need
> for
> a plain text fall back system
> 
> Bob
> 
> >
> > 15 years ago I lived in Turkey for a few years, unlike in Australia
> they
> > have a sign translator on all the evening news broadcasts, scrolling
> real
> > time captions for the TV news that does not require the purchase of a
> > teletext reciever.
> >
> > In Australia some closed captioning is sometimes provided because it
> was
> > considered that the station has the responsibility of providing them
> but
> as
> > far as I know the TV station is not required to provide everyone who
> wants
> > one with a teletext capable TV set.
> >
> > I think the same situation really applies with the web when it comes
> to
> > ancient or specific user choices after all the user cant claim
> > discrimination if his choices are the cause of it.
> >
> > Harry Woodrow
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org]On
> > Behalf Of RUST Randal
> > Sent: Wednesday, 16 January 2002 9:41 PM
> > To: 'Martin Sloan'; 'Kynn Bartlett'; 'Harry Woodrow'; 'Denise Wood';
> > 'w3c-wai-ig@w3.org'
> > Cc: 'charles@w3.org'
> > Subject: RE: Legal requirements RE: statistics
> >
> >
> > Martin,
> >
> > You make a very good point about Section 508 "likely to provide
> > interpretation for the ADA."
> >
> > In the U.S. Section 508 is a mandate for Federal agencies.  However,
> the
> > ADA, which has requirements concerning "effective communication"
> applies
> to
> > all covered entities.  This is according to the U.S. Department of
> Justice.
> > The way I view it is that if a company has buildings that must be
> wheelchair
> > accessible, then their subsequent web site should be accessible to
> those
> > with disabilities.
> >
> > Now, let's pretend for a moment that I am a lawyer, and that I have a
> client
> > who is being sued by a user who says that my client's web site is
> > inaccessible to them.
> >
> > For now, we will not specify a disability.  And my client is not a
> Federal
> > agency.
> >
> > My client has followed all of the recommended standards of WCAG Level
> AAA,
> > along with other W3C recommendations and Section 508, so I know that
> the
> > problem in not my client's site.
> >
> > Upon further investigation, I find out that the plaintff has been
> accessing
> > the internet with IE 4 or lower, or Netscape 4.7 or lower, then I
> would
> > expect the court would clear my client of any wrongdoing.
> >
> > However, let's continue and theorize that the plaintiff's lawyer
> provides
> > the argument that their client cannot afford the money for new
> equipment,
> or
> > is unable to upgrade their browser.  He or she argues that, on those
> > grounds, my client should be providing content that is accessible in
> older
> > browsers.
> >
> > How would I counter this?  I would say that, under the provisions of
> Section
> > 508 and the ADA, it would provide an "undue burden" on my client to
> create
> a
> > second version of their web site that is built on workarounds, and
> therfore
> > is non-compliant with the rules.  I would also say that the plaintiff
> > chooses to continue to access the internet with hardware and software
> that
> > does not comply with standards, and that my client cannot be made
> > responsible for the internet experience of this one person.  I would
> also
> > say that, in the U.S., you can get current copies of IE or Netscape
> almost
> > anywhere.  You don't have to download them.  And I know for a fact
> that
> many
> > of the computer-industry magazines (Internet Works, Computer Arts,
> Create
> > Online), which are sold in Europe come with CDs that have current
> versions
> > of the browsers on them.
> >
> > Randal Rust
> > Senior Consultant
> > Covansys, Inc.
> > Columbus, OH
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Martin Sloan [mailto:martin.sloan@orange.net]
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2002 8:25 PM
> > To: 'Kynn Bartlett'; 'Harry Woodrow'; 'Denise Wood';
> 'w3c-wai-ig@w3.org'
> > Cc: 'charles@w3.org'
> > Subject: RE: Legal requirements RE: statistics
> >
> >
> > Again, apologies for not replying off-list, but Kynn does ask some
> valid
> > questions which I feel should be answered.
> >
> > On Tuesday, January 15, 2002 1:50 AM, Kynn Bartlett
> > [SMTP:kynn-edapta@idyllmtn.com] wrote:
> > > Standard industry practice in web design is to create inaccessible
> > > web sites.  Claiming that ignoring WCAG is unprofessional web
> > > development is simply wrong, unless you mysteriously want to
> > > characterize 95% of web development as "not standard industry
> > > practice" and 5% (or less) of accessible designs as the only
> > > valid web work being done.
> > I don't know about other jurisdictions, but there is clear authority
> in
> > Scots law that when considering negligence that the required standard
> can
> > be held to be higher than those generally accepted by within the
> > profession.
> >
> > Therefore, given that Web accessibility will be included in the next
> code
> > of practice in the UK as being an example of discrimination and the
> WCAG
> > are designed to help designers encorporate accessibility, I have no
> doubt
> > that a scottish court would have no problem in adopting a higher
> standard
> > than that practiced by the majority of the industry.Just because lots
> of
> > people do something one way, doesn't mean it is right. The majority of
> > motorists probably break the speed limit on a regular basis, but that
> > doesn't mean that the speed limits do not apply anymore.
> >
> > > Well, for starters, W3C recommendations aren't "recognized
> > > standards" -- they're recommendations and are specifically NOT
> > > international standards.  They are not created in the same way that
> > > standards are created, and they are not issued by a standards body.
> > > (The W3C is not an international standards-creating body.)...
> > > As to what degree this is "recognized", it's also very unclear that
> > > WCAG has been formally recognized at all in any meaningful sense.
> > Whilst, yes the guidelines are just that, rather than standards, at
> the
> > moment. But I beg to differ. The WCAG have been used for the basis of
> the
> > European Commission's eEurope intiative, which applies to all member
> > states' public websites. Therefore they have been recognised at the
> highest
> > legislative level in Europe as a standard for compliance. Likewise,
> they
> > have been recognised and adopted in Australia.
> >
> > I am also led to believe that the section 508 requirements are broadly
> > based on WCAG level A, which in turn would be likely to provide
> > interpretation for the ADA. Therefore, whilst they are not a
> "worldwide"
> > standard at the moment, an increasing number of bodies and countries
> *are*
> > adopting them. As such, any competent professional should surely be
> aware
> > of them and their potential implications.
> >
> > > >The world has moved on. SOCOG literally was
> > > >groundbreaking and IS a world precedent.
> > > Precedents don't create international standards. I'm not a lawyer,
> > > but that much is certainly clear.
> > This was meant in the non-legal sense. Rather that SOCOG was a
> watershed
> > for the interpretation of accessibilty by a court and the way it went
> about
> > it.
> >
> > > >In my article I did not state that
> > > >the WCAG guidelines are law, but rather that they are *likely* to
> be
> > held
> > > >to be quasi-law and that it is surely wise to follow them.
> > > Likely to be held as quasi-law?  Say what?  Obviously I am not
> > > a lawyer -- as stated before -- but I would appreciate it if
> > > you would define what exactly you mean by "quasi-law".
> > Apologies for the legal terminology. I use the term 'quasi-law' to
> > encompass law which does not have a statutory basis and is instead a
> test
> > (whether it be guidelines issued by a non-governmental/law-making body
> or
> a
> > test thought up by the court itself) that the court has imported to
> help
> it
> > develop the law and provide some clarity. The WCAG were not passed as
> law
> > by the Australian parliament, nor established in past case law.
> However,
> > they have now effectively been imported into Australian law as a
> benchmark
> > with which to measure accessibility.
> >
> > > Would you likewise state that browser makers who do not enforce
> > > the HTML 4.01 standard are likely to be found violation of quasi-
> > > law?
> > As far as I am aware, there is no law which requires that browser
> makers
> > encorporate the latest HTML standards into their browsers.
> >
> > Whilst the WCAG may not be the perfect solution as regards a legal
> test,
> it
> > is the best on offer and they are increasingly being adopted, and will
> > continue to be, as the way that accessibility is tested against
> national
> > laws. There is a very strong and coherent argument for saying that an
> > inaccessible web site breaches disability rights legislation and the
> WCAG
> > offers the best possible handle for measuring the vague term of
> > 'accessibility'. As I say, they have now been adopted by the European
> > Commission and Australia in one degree or another and I suspect that
> this
> > will be followed by many more countries.
> >
> > I hope that explains it.
> >
> > martin.
> > --
> > martin.sloan@orange.net
> > Glasgow Graduate School of Law
> > A Joint venture between the universities of Glasgow and Strathclyde
> >
> 
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> 

   ASCII Ribbon Campaign                        accessBob                       
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Received on Wednesday, 16 January 2002 09:59:41 UTC