- From: Charles McCathieNevile <charles@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 22 Nov 2001 00:27:31 -0500 (EST)
- To: Jim Thatcher <jim@jimthatcher.com>
- cc: William R Williams/R5/USDAFS <wrwilliams@fs.fed.us>, <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
I use iCab from day to day which renders the things which are abbr and acronym elements (It is true that browsers based on IE suffer from the fact that IE never implemented abbr as far as I know, but it has implemented acronym for some time) and when I use Amaya it gives me the ability to identify the elements, and to ask for the title attribute value. In each case, they visually identify the element (Amaya through style sheet, iCab by default). With iCab, a mouseover will cause the value of the title attribute to be displayed in the status bar, with Amaya I can query for the value with a couple of keystrokes. No, I was not specifically talking about screen readers, although I know that some people who use them seriously habitually use IE and have recourse to other browsers such as lynx, or vice versa. Of talking browsers I know of, Home Page Reader (major in the sense that it is made by a company and has a marketing organisation behind it) and WebSound are based on IE, while iCab, WebVoz, emacspeak/W3, are not, and for telephone-based systems I don't know what they use although I believe that iSound built their own basis. For people who use other kinds of assistive technology (magnification, adaptive keyboards, and so on) there is less data about what software they are using as far as I am aware, (most of the people I know of using magnification are doing it under linux, but I suspect that isn't representative of the general population). Charles McCN On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, Jim Thatcher wrote: Hi Charles, Given that I now know that your browser is not Opera ... what is this wonderful tool you are using "that renders marked up elements such as abbr and acronym and shows me the expansion, just as if I was using a voice system?" Especially I would like to know how your browser renders abbr just as if you were using a voice system. I don't know how that would be. What "voice system" renders abbr and how is a visual experience going to compare with that? You imply that people "use several browsers simultaneously to get the best access with their assistive technology." If you are talking about screen readers, I don't think there are several browsers in use. In fact the major screen readers and talking browser are all using IE and no other. Jim jim@jimthatcher.com Accessibility Consulting http://jimthatcher.com 512-306-0931 -----Original Message----- From: w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org [mailto:w3c-wai-ig-request@w3.org]On Behalf Of Charles McCathieNevile Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 4:52 PM To: William R Williams/R5/USDAFS Cc: w3c-wai-ig@w3.org Subject: Re: abbr/acronym - repetitive use Aaah, but that is only becuase your browser is not meeting your needs. I as a sighted individual can choose to use a browser that renders marked up elements such as abbr and acronym and shows me the expansion, just as if I was using a voice system. If all the browsers out there were really good, there wouldn't be an issue. But just as people need to make choces or use several browsers simultaneously to get the best access with their assistive technology, people who don't use assistive technology have to do the same thing. Charles On Wed, 21 Nov 2001, William R Williams/R5/USDAFS wrote: Now, I will not argue the point too enthusiastically, and mean no offense, but here's my take... To engage in specific behaviors which favor one population group over another is discrimination. The term "discriminatory" is not inherently immoral or "evil," for I hope each of us are discriminating individuals -- going about our daily business making all kinds of distinctions: it's how we make sense out of this (oftentimes) senseless world. In the situation to which I was referring, the repeated use of acronym/abbreviation tags provides information to people using AT which is not equally available to people who do not use AT -- it's an inequity present only because HTML allows this to happen (and the developer implements it). Given such design, and despite good intentions, my access to and use of the information is not comparable to the access to and use of that information by one who experiences a relevant disability. That I, as a temporarily enabled individual, must scoll back to earlier copy to recall the full title of an acro/abbr while those using AT are provided the complete information each time is discriminatory practice. Bill Williams Kynn Bartlett <kynn-edapta@idy To: "William R Williams/R5/USDAFS" llmtn.com> <wrwilliams@fs.fed.us>, w3c-wai-ig@w3.org Sent by: cc: w3c-wai-ig-reque Subject: Re: abbr/acronym - repetitive use st@w3.org 11/21/01 01:03 PM At 1:01 PM -0800 11/21/01, William R Williams/R5/USDAFS wrote: >In this fashion, individuals who are temporarily enabled are expected to >remember the meaning of the acro/abbr and so it should be, as well, for >individuals experiencing relevant disabilities. Web presentation does not >really change this logic; in fact, repeated use of the acronym/abbreviation >tags at each instance seems discriminatory in itself. Hold on a sec here -- there's nothing discriminatory in using <abbr> at every abbreviation. It may be pointless for other reasons, but there's nothing discriminatory about doing so. --Kynn -- Kynn Bartlett <kynn@idyllmtn.com> http://www.kynn.com/ -- Charles McCathieNevile http://www.w3.org/People/Charles phone: +61 409 134 136 W3C Web Accessibility Initiative http://www.w3.org/WAI fax: +1 617 258 5999 Location: 21 Mitchell street FOOTSCRAY Vic 3011, Australia (or W3C INRIA, Route des Lucioles, BP 93, 06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France) -- Charles McCathieNevile http://www.w3.org/People/Charles phone: +61 409 134 136 W3C Web Accessibility Initiative http://www.w3.org/WAI fax: +1 617 258 5999 Location: 21 Mitchell street FOOTSCRAY Vic 3011, Australia (or W3C INRIA, Route des Lucioles, BP 93, 06902 Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France)
Received on Thursday, 22 November 2001 00:27:37 UTC