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RE: Disturbing trend in tables

From: Terry Crowley <tcrowley@microsoft.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2001 09:43:32 -0800
Message-ID: <1E27BBCDDE50914C99517B4D7EC5D5251ECF4F@RED-MSG-13.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
To: "'Fitzgerald, Jimmie'" <Jimmie.Fitzgerald@jbosc.ksc.nasa.gov>, wai-ig list <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
That code wasn't generated by FrontPage - not sure about dreamweaver.  FP
doesn't have a WYSIWYG interface for setting properties on TR's - that's one
clue.  Of course we would preserve any HTML we see, so it certainly could
have passed through FrontPage at some point.

With respect to the comment "Full of extraneous tags and frontpage
extensions that I'm sure will mess up every screen reader there is", do you
actually have a real example where this is the case?

Terry Crowley

-----Original Message-----
From: Fitzgerald, Jimmie [mailto:Jimmie.Fitzgerald@jbosc.ksc.nasa.gov]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 7:01 AM
To: wai-ig list
Subject: RE: Disturbing trend in tables

I would concur with your evaluation that this is being done by a GUI editor
like Frontpage or Dreamweaver.  The 508 or WCAG will require people to
actually learn HTML, DHTML and CSS at a minimum.  That is not going to be
readily accepted by a vast number of developers who don't actually 'know'
these languages.  They've got a lot to learn in a short time.

On a darker note, programs like Bobby and, from what I hear, in-sight and
in-focus are supposed to be able to validate a web document.  The problem is
that this is basically impossible to do programmatically and requires
someone with a good knowledge of the aforementioned languages to view the
source code and validate parts of each document manually.  If you've never
looked at Frontpage documents source code you should.  Full of extraneous
tags and frontpage extensions that I'm sure will mess up every screen reader
there is.

I've been a programmer for 25 years and code in about 7 different languages.
IMHO, the worst thing to happen in the software development community was
the advent of these GUI interfaces which allow people to design and build
without actually learning the underlying elements that make up their page.
Seems like something important was lost when they did this.

Jim Fitzgerald

-----Original Message-----
From: David Poehlman [mailto:poehlman1@home.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2001 9:39 AM
To: wai-ig list
Subject: Fw: Disturbing trend in tables


----- Original Message -----
From: "Barrett, Don" <Don_Barrett@ed.gov>
To: <basr-l@trace.wisc.edu>
Sent: January 10, 2001 9:28 AM
Subject: Disturbing trend in tables

I am seeing a disturbing trend in table construction as evidenced by
following code.  This is taken from a chart listing pay grade and

<tr bgcolor="#eeeeee">
      <td WIDTH="65" HEIGHT="17"><font FACE="Arial" COLOR="#000000">
        <p ALIGN="RIGHT">GS-1</font></td>
      <td WIDTH="49" HEIGHT="17"><font FACE="Arial" COLOR="#000000">
        <p ALIGN="RIGHT">15,701</font></td>
      <td WIDTH="50" HEIGHT="17"><font FACE="Arial" COLOR="#000000">
        <p ALIGN="RIGHT">16,225</font></td>

I am referring to the <p> paragraph markers which are being placed in
cell.  These screw up Jaws' ability to properly parse the table.  This
the second table I have seen like this in recent weeks.  I suspect
these <p>
tags are being generated by an HTML editor.  Can anyone shed some
light on
their purpose or necessity?

Received on Wednesday, 10 January 2001 13:15:29 UTC

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