W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > w3c-wai-ig@w3.org > October to December 1997

RE: ALT-attribute usage (fwd)

From: Mike Paciello <paciello@yuri.org>
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 1997 00:48:03 -0500
Message-Id: <>
To: "po@trace.wisc.edu" <po@trace.wisc.edu>, "'Charles (Chuck) Oppermann'" <chuckop@MICROSOFT.com>, "w3c-wai-ig@w3.org" <w3c-wai-ig@w3.org>
Thanks Gregg, looks like your questions got to the list before mine...but
they are similar in nature.

Speak away Chuck...you've got my interest piqued... :-)

- Mike

At 11:13 PM 11/3/97 -0600, Gregg Vanderheiden wrote:
>I'm missing something here.   The only way currently to use a graphic as a 
>bullet is to *not* use the list constructs (tags) and to just have the 
>graphic bullets as small graphic images inserted in front a bunch of 
>indented one line paragraphs  (or they use line breaks to keep the lines 
>closer together).    At least that is what people are doing now.
>How does Active Accessibility tell you that that is a list?
>(If and when you can specify that an image is used as a bullet image then 
>you don't need to put alt text in cause there will be not images to put the 
>alt text on.  If graphics are turned off I would presume the regular 
>bullets would appear.  Hmmmm   would the alt text appear at the top of the 
>list where there image specification for the list was placed? --unless of 
>course it is in the style sheet.)
>By the way,  an old question that didn't get answered (at least if it did I 
>missed it - too much stuff too late at night).   Does HTML 4.0 allow a 
>graphic to be specified as the image to be used in a UL ?      Can you do 
>it with CSS or CSS2?
>You also wrote:
>so if I have a picture of a furry dog as my list
>item graphic, I as an HTML author need to always use "Item" as the ALT
>             attribute?  Isn't this a misuse of the ALT attribute?
>I would say the answer is no.  The purpose of ALT is to represent the 
>*function* not the look of an item.  If all your bullets are fuzzy dogs and 
>that is just because you are a pet shop, then "item" would be the function 
>of the Dog bullets.     If you used dog and cat bullets to indicate dog and 
>cat related items then "dog item" or "cat item" would be the proper alt 
>text.    Unless the fuzzyness of the dog represented some meaning, it would 
>not be in the alt tag.
>At least that is my reading of the consensus of the list.     Anyone else 
>read it differently?
>Also,  has anyone tested this on any other screen readers?  If so let me 
>know.  I'm going to run some tests here but we don't have all the screen 
>reader and browser combinations.
>Please just listen to the following lines on your systems and tell me (on 
>the list or separately) which ones pause and which do not.
>Item. Bananas with period.
>Item, Bananas with comma.
>Item: Bananas with semicolon.
>I have also attached an HTML page with the above items on it.  Please let 
>me know if you get a different result with the HTML page.
>(Need to know results soonest for guidelines)
>-- ------------------------------
>Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>Professor - Human Factors
>Dept of Ind. Engr. - U of Wis.
>Director - Trace R & D Center
>gv@trace.wisc.edu    http://trace.wisc.edu
>FAX 608/262-8848
>For a list of our listserves send "lists" to listproc@trace.wisc.edu
>-----Original Message-----
>From:	Charles (Chuck) Oppermann [SMTP:chuckop@MICROSOFT.com]
>Sent:	Monday, November 03, 1997 8:39 PM
>To:	'po@trace.wisc.edu'; w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
>Subject:	RE: ALT-attribute usage (fwd)
>I disagree with this - so if I have a picture of a furry dog as my list
>item graphic, I as an HTML author need to always use "Item" as the ALT
>attribute?  Isn't this a misuse of the ALT attribute?
>Via the HTML object model and Active Accessibility, screen readers will
>know they are talking to a list item already.  This guideline only helps
>down level browsers and certain screen readers with the *visual*
>presentation of the list item.
>I fear that this kind of guideline only makes adoption less likely by
>being confusing.
>Charles Oppermann
>Windows NT User Interface Group, Microsoft Corporation
>mailto:chuckop@microsoft.com http://microsoft.com/enable/
>"A computer on every desk and in every home, usable by everyone!"
>	-----Original Message-----
>	From:	Gregg Vanderheiden [SMTP:po@trace.wisc.edu]
>	Sent:	Monday, November 03, 1997 1:11 PM
>	To:	w3c-wai-ig@w3.org
>	Subject:	RE: ALT-attribute usage (fwd)
>	Perfect.  Just the feedback we needed.
>	Unless I hear otherwise the guidelines will recommend
>	1)  that any graphics used as bullets have the alt text  "Item"
>With a
>	character to cause a pause after the word.
>	The two candidates are Comma and Semicolon.   Possibly with a
>	afterward to keep the word from running into the next word.
>	Couple of questions to close this one off
>	 - Is there a consensus that there should be "item"?  (I thought
>I got one
>	but am not sure)
>	- Is comma the proper character for a pause.  It is longer but
>longer may
>	not be better.  And Semicolon looks better visually and more
>natural so it
>	might get included more.     Should we use Semicolon or comma?
>	- Is the space needed?  Can someone confirm?  Is it needed for
>comma?   Is
>	it needed for Semicolon?
>	Thanks much.
>	Gregg
>	-- ------------------------------
>	Gregg C Vanderheiden Ph.D.
>	Guidelines Scribe and Compiler
>Attachment Converted: "c:\eudora\attach\ItemTest.htm"

Michael G. Paciello                      Executive Director, 
E-Mail: mailto:paciello@yuri.org         Yuri Rubinsky Insight Foundation
Tel: +1 603 598 9544                     URL: http://www.yuri.org/
FAX: +1 603 598 2839                     Promoting Accessibility Awareness!

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Received on Tuesday, 4 November 1997 00:52:41 UTC

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