- From: John Foliot <john@foliot.ca>
- Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2021 16:25:21 -0400
- To: Rachael Bradley Montgomery <rachael@accessiblecommunity.org>
- Cc: "Niemann, Gundula" <gundula.niemann@sap.com>, Lisa Seeman <lisa1seeman@gmail.com>, Rain Michaels <rainb@google.com>, Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>, Shawn Henry <shawn@w3.org>, WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, public-cognitive-a11y-tf <public-cognitive-a11y-tf@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CAKdCpxxwtxBvXdbvgDOh9+9k=2Rv4bg0UxnB6y0b4E4DEs3DzA@mail.gmail.com>
> John - you had argued for that (Option 3) in an earlier email. Can you live with it now? I can, it was, in fact, my preference: I was open to including this pronoun information as a broader 'data-point' for all of the personas (see Mike Gower's comments about 'templates') in an effort to compromise, but you are correct, I am quite opposed to only using it *once*, and would prefer we not add it at all, for the reasons previously stated. (I'll also note that a francophone colleague contacted me privately to note this would be difficult to translate into French as well). JF On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 12:10 PM Rachael Bradley Montgomery < rachael@accessiblecommunity.org> wrote: > Hello, > > With my chair hat on, I want to point out that W3 guidance encourages us > to include gender diversity in our personas and documentation. From that > perspective we should work to include Tal as a gender neutral persona. > > With my chair hat off, I personally will object to publishing if we do not > include Tal as a gender neutral persona. > > Putting my chair hat back on, I would like to find a compromise solution > as a way to go forward and we seemed to be close. > > Assuming we keep the persona, I believe we have 3 options: > > Option 1) Include the gender statement only in Tal > Option 2) Include the gender statement in all personas > Option 3) Do not add a pronoun statement to any persona > > John and Gundala - I believe you object to option 1 and it sounds like > that stance is non-negotiable. > > Lisa has serious concerns about option 2 potentially leading to confusion > when a gender specific persona is read without understanding the persona > set as a whole. > > I would like to suggest option 3 (no pronoun statements at all) as a > middle ground. John - you had argued for that in an earlier email. Can you > live with it now? > > Other thoughts? > > I do want to note that both COGA and AG will need to agree so COGA > participants weighing in here would be helpful. I appreciate the continued > respectful dialogue to work this out. > > Thank you, > > Rachael > > > > On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 11:38 AM Niemann, Gundula <gundula.niemann@sap.com> > wrote: > >> I fully agree. >> >> >> >> *From:* John Foliot <john@foliot.ca> >> *Sent:* Montag, 29. März 2021 15:00 >> *To:* Lisa Seeman <lisa1seeman@gmail.com> >> *Cc:* Rain Michaels <rainb@google.com>; Laura Carlson < >> laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>; Rachael Bradley Montgomery < >> rachael@accessiblecommunity.org>; Shawn Henry <shawn@w3.org>; WCAG < >> w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>; public-cognitive-a11y-tf < >> public-cognitive-a11y-tf@w3.org> >> *Subject:* Re: Content Usable pronouns and Tal >> >> >> >> Hi Lisa, >> >> >> >> You have just argued for why this one instance should be removed from the >> document. >> >> >> >> If, as you say, "...it is not known to many people..." then why are we >> adding it? You cannot have both the "we need to support diversity" >> argument, and the "not everyone understands this" argument at the same >> time. In other words, if stating this for all (or at least more than one) >> persona(s) is confusing, then surely adding it to only ONE persona is >> equally if not MORE confusing... ("why are they saying this about only this >> persona? Is '*gender identity disorder*' a medical condition and part of >> their disability?" - see comments about Iran below.) >> >> >> >> I've had my reservations about our documents trying to be all things for >> all people in the past, and I continue to maintain that this is getting out >> of scope for the goal of this document, which is to focus on the needs of *users >> with cognitive disabilities*. >> >> >> >> If we are insisting on using this as a learning opportunity to address >> other social inequalities, fine (and I was prepared to back down slightly), >> but do so in a way that does not promote tokenism, which I argue today that >> is *EXACTLY* what is happening here. Your latest argument that this can be >> confusing for some users (the *impacted audience*) is the final >> justification against adding this content. >> >> To recap, I am opposed to advancing this for the following reasons: >> >> - *Concerns related to internationalization/translation:* some >> languages are gender neutral, and this is going to cause translation >> problems (I have previously cited Chinese, and note that this past week W3C >> contact Ivan Herman remarked that Hungarian has no gendered pronouns >> either: https://www.facebook.com/ivan.herman/posts/10158993478418828 >> - apparently this is true for Finnish as well.) >> - *Concerns related to cultural norms and laws:* I have previously >> cited the 2013 Russian gay propaganda law ("for the Purpose of Protecting >> Children from Information Advocating for a Denial of Traditional Family >> Values"), and how adding this editorial content MAY run afoul of that >> legislation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_gay_propaganda_law). >> This legislation "... prohibit(s) the distribution of "*propaganda of >> non-traditional sexual relationships*" among minors." >> In Iran, the current policy is that Trans persons are not "thought of >> as deviants", but as having *a medical illness* (gender identity >> disorder) with a cure (sex reassignment surgery). This may be a moot point >> however, as in Iran, the government heavily censors material available on >> the internet (a 2013 analysis found that nearly half of the 500 most >> popular sites on the internet are blacklisted in Iran) and Trans people >> cannot research what it means to be transgender or connect with others in >> the community. (source: >> https://qz.com/889548/everyone-treated-me-like-a-saint-in-iran-theres-only-one-way-to-survive-as-a-transgender-person/) >> Q: what will this do to our document for Iran/Iranians? >> - *Concerns related to comprehension and purpose:* According to our >> own internal COGA Task Force, "... it is not known to many people, and we >> want to minimize learning new things..." - that adding this pronoun >> information is adding an additional learning burden to the COGA community >> (according to the experts) and may detract from the purpose of this >> document. >> >> Given that any one of these could be significant, and that likely adding >> all three together even more so, I believe we are over-shooting our mark >> here and advocate for the removal of this particular labeling from the Tal >> persona. I will now formally oppose the publication of this document AS >> IT IS CURRENTLY written for these reasons. >> >> >> >> Sincerely, >> >> >> >> JF >> >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 29, 2021 at 5:51 AM Lisa Seeman <lisa1seeman@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> Hi John, >> >> Coga thought about this, but did not like adding it to every persona as >> it is not known to many people, and we want to minimize learning new things >> to understand this content. >> >> Having a sentence in one persona is compromise that we felt we can do. >> people often come sentence a sense that they are not sure what it is about, >> but if they understand the rest of it, they are ok. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 7:23 PM John Foliot <john@foliot.ca> wrote: >> >> Hi Rain, >> >> >> >> Thanks for this research!! It is quite interesting. >> >> As an additional "option" (consideration?), if we *DO* continue to >> include the statement that Tal prefers to be identified as they/them/their, >> what if we include this for *all* of the personas: make it a standard bit >> of information about all of the personas, not just the one. I think that >> would help a little in reducing my impression of 'tokenism' ("Look, we've >> got one of those too!" - yes, that comes off as insensitive, and I do not >> mean it that way - it's simply an observation that it could be >> interpreted that way). >> >> >> >> I also continue to be concerned about cultural sensitivity - not every >> culture is as accepting of gender diversity as our increasingly secular >> Western society, and I believe we need to be mindful of that as well. >> >> >> >> Thoughts? >> >> JF >> >> >> >> (Related: editorial note - the text currently reads "Tal like to be >> referred to (pronouns) as they/them/theirs" - should it not be "Tal like >> *s* to be referred to (pronouns) as Tal/they/them/theirs" - i.e.the >> addition of the "s" on "like") >> >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 12:26 PM Rain Michaels <rainb@google.com> wrote: >> >> Hello all, >> >> >> >> I'm hoping that my comments below don't further complicate or confuse >> this conversation, but after reading the conversation that followed, I >> connected directly with a researcher who has done a lot of work around the >> intersection of cognitive and gender diversity in order to better >> understand how important it is that we include a non-binary persona. >> >> >> >> This researcher confirmed the following: >> >> · Choosing to use one's name instead of a pronoun (as Rachael >> proposed in option 3) is an approach that will be recognized and >> appreciated by the community we are trying to include, as it is both a >> personal preference, and also a self-protective preference that offers more >> subtly. >> >> · There is a higher than average prevalence of individuals with >> cognitive difference also identifying as non-binary; these individuals are >> left out in so many ways that it would be a small and positive gesture for >> us to include them in the Tal persona. >> >> · A good resource to help think of the importance of this single >> move: Gender Dysphoria and People with Intellectual Disability >> <http://www.intellectualdisability.info/mental-health/articles/gender-dysphoria-and-people-with-intellectual-disability> >> >> >> Additionally, given the link to the emerging style recommendation from >> EOWG that Laura referenced >> <https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Style#Personas_and_use_cases>, and given >> that we do have many personas, including Tal as a non-binary individual who >> prefers to be referred to by name feels like an important thing for us to >> do. >> >> >> >> Rain >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 11:24 AM Laura Carlson < >> laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> Hi Rachael and all, >> >> I prefer option 1 and 3 combined. >> >> If specifying pronouns in our personas is going to help to promote >> diversity, equality, and inclusiveness, we should be doing it. >> >> It seems like the Education & Outreach Working Group (EOWG) may be >> working on persona pronouns for the WAI Style Guide: >> https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Style#Personas_and_use_cases >> >> Perhaps Shawn may have some guidance for us? >> >> Thank you, >> >> Kind Regards, >> Laura >> >> On 3/23/21, Rachael Bradley Montgomery <rachael@accessiblecommunity.org> >> wrote: >> > Hello, >> > >> > Thank you for the thoughtful discussion at today's meeting about the >> plural >> > pronoun used in Tal. A resource you can read if this is a new area for >> you >> > is https://www.mypronouns.org/ >> > >> > We discussed the following options: >> > >> > 1. no change >> > 2. add it in 1 or 2 places in the main persona >> > 3. Tal like to be referred to (pronouns) as Tal/they/them/theirs >> > 4. change the persona to remove gender diversity >> > 5. use the pronouns as frequently as would be used naturally >> > >> > COGA had voted against 5 because of readability and translatability >> > challenges and compromised with using the minimal pronouns in option >> 1. I >> > have created a google document with all of the options at >> > >> https://docs.google.com/document/d/18FabK-X1AgOMPqG2YydOrcyl1d89rHxbcfqso2du1vo/edit# >> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/18FabK-X1AgOMPqG2YydOrcyl1d89rHxbcfqso2du1vo/edit> >> > >> > Please take a look and weigh in with your thoughts on how to proceed. >> > >> > Best regards, >> > >> > Rachael >> > -- >> > Rachael Montgomery, PhD >> > Director, Accessible Community >> > rachael@accessiblecommunity.org >> > >> > "I will paint this day with laughter; >> > I will frame this night in song." >> > - Og Mandino >> > >> >> >> -- >> Laura L. Carlson >> >> > > -- > Rachael Montgomery, PhD > Director, Accessible Community > rachael@accessiblecommunity.org > > "I will paint this day with laughter; > I will frame this night in song." > - Og Mandino > >
Received on Monday, 29 March 2021 20:26:17 UTC