RE: Content Usable pronouns and Tal

I'd like to think more about point 3.

As someone who has a child who has a they/them preference, I get this 
topic. I also appreciate the material Rain supplied, which supports the 
argument that having a persona that has a pronoun preference is 
appropriate as one of the tools to better consider this user and design 
for their needs.
I just didn't see a lot of consensus about including pronoun preference as 
part of a persona _template_, and I think there are considerations.
There are a lot of things we might consider around self-identification to 
do with disability that are not part of a template, so it seems a little 
unusual to me that _this_ is the part of the persona we're tackling first 
as a new template feature.

Thanks,
Michael Gower
Senior Consultant in Accessibility
IBM Design


1803 Douglas Street, Victoria, BC  V8T 5C3
gowerm@ca.ibm.com
cellular: (250) 661-0098 *  fax: (250) 220-8034



From:   Rachael Bradley Montgomery <rachael@accessiblecommunity.org>
To:     Rain Michaels <rainb@google.com>
Cc:     John Foliot <john@foliot.ca>, Laura Carlson 
<laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>, Shawn Henry <shawn@w3.org>, WCAG 
<w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, public-cognitive-a11y-tf 
<public-cognitive-a11y-tf@w3.org>
Date:   2021/03/25 07:08 PM
Subject:        [EXTERNAL] Re: Content Usable pronouns and Tal



Hello, I believe we have reasonable consensus in this conversation so far 
to: Keep the current pronoun use in the text Add Tal's name as a reference 
so the preference statement reads:  Tal likes to be referred to as 
Tal/they/them/theirs ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart 
This Message Is From an External Sender 
This message came from outside your organization. 
ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd
Hello,

I believe we have reasonable consensus in this conversation so far to:
Keep the current pronoun use in the text
Add Tal's name as a reference so the preference statement reads:  Tal 
likes to be referred to as Tal/they/them/theirs
Add a preference statement to all personas
We will have limited time on Tuesday so if you disagree with this or if 
I've misstated anything, please write back to the list with your thoughts.

Thank you all for the thoughtful conversation so far. 

Regards,

Rachael 

On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 10:00 PM Rain Michaels <rainb@google.com> wrote:
Hello John,

Thank you again for your thoughtful response.

From what I'm reading, I think that there is a way to include Tal's 
persona as intended, while addressing the concerns you raise. 

Looking forward to finding the resolution with the group. 

Warmly,

Rain

On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 11:35 AM John Foliot <john@foliot.ca> wrote:
Hi Rain

Regarding tokenism: if we *did* include this pronoun bit for all personas 
then a) I don't think it would not add that much more to the overall 
weight of the document, b) it further 'normalizes' that sentence in the 
context of this document (applied to all), c) which would lead me to be 
more open to considering Option 3 (cultural issues aside).

Regarding cultural sensitivity: I totally get your point, and I too want 
to move the needle for all users with disabilities - I've fought hard for 
that for many years. I'm just concerned that by drawing attention to the 
gender issue here that it might dilute or diminish in some way the primary 
goal: focusing on the needs of users with cognitive issues (no matter what 
their sexual orientation or gender preference label might be). People can 
be 'funny'.... you can write 99 positive things, 1 negative thing, and a 
percentage of readers will all focus on the 1 negative thing, avoiding the 
99 positives... I just want to ensure we don't fall victim to that, is 
all.

Regarding "inviting me to be an active part of this conversation": 
Actually, thank YOU! The W3C is made better and stronger via the 
participation of multiple voices, especially new voices. Like any 
organization, things at the W3C can slide toward "groupthink" without new 
and fresh eyes and perspectives, so as an old dog who has been hanging out 
at the W3C for what seems like forever I for one appreciate your "jumping 
in with both feet" approach.

JF

On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 1:30 PM Rain Michaels <rainb@google.com> wrote:
Hi John,

Thank you for the followup questions. 

Regarding tokenism: this is an excellent point. I know the task force has 
been working quite hard to keep the document as slim as possible (which is 
not slim at all), but including this line at the end of each persona 
introduction may be a reasonable request and feels like a good solution.

Regarding cultural sensitivity: while I appreciate your concern, I have a 
few thoughts on this. The individuals coga is most actively trying to 
include are the most historically unheard and left out. I feel that it is 
worth including and acknowledging who these individuals are, and I feel 
that the way this persona is written has a nice subtly that doesn't make 
it feel like we are forcing cultural change. For those cultural spaces 
that don't yet have mental space for diverse gender identities, my feeling 
is that they are more likely to simply read this framing as "unusual" but 
not put too much more thought into it.

I also want to add that I'm learning a lot from this conversation, and am 
very aware that I am new to the group and don't have the same overall 
background. Thank you for inviting me to be an active part of this 
conversation.
Rain

On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 10:15 AM John Foliot <john@foliot.ca> wrote:
Hi Rain,

Thanks for this research!! It is quite interesting.

As an additional "option" (consideration?), if we *DO* continue to include 
the statement that Tal prefers to be identified as they/them/their, what 
if we include this for *all* of the personas: make it a standard bit of 
information about all of the personas, not just the one. I think that 
would help a little in reducing my impression of 'tokenism' ("Look, we've 
got one of those too!" - yes, that comes off as insensitive, and I do not 
mean it that way - it's simply an observation that it could be 
interpreted that way). 

I also continue to be concerned about cultural sensitivity - not every 
culture is as accepting of gender diversity as our increasingly secular 
Western society, and I believe we need to be mindful of that as well.

Thoughts?

JF

(Related: editorial note - the text currently reads "Tal like to be 
referred to (pronouns) as they/them/theirs" - should it not be "Tal likes 
to be referred to (pronouns) as Tal/they/them/theirs" - i.e.the addition 
of the "s" on "like")

On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 12:26 PM Rain Michaels <rainb@google.com> wrote:
Hello all, 

I'm hoping that my comments below don't further complicate or confuse this 
conversation, but after reading the conversation that followed, I 
connected directly with a researcher who has done a lot of work around the 
intersection of cognitive and gender diversity in order to better 
understand how important it is that we include a non-binary persona.

This researcher confirmed the following: 
Choosing to use one's name instead of a pronoun (as Rachael proposed in 
option 3) is an approach that will be recognized and appreciated by the 
community we are trying to include, as it is both a personal preference, 
and also a self-protective preference that offers more subtly.
There is a higher than average prevalence of individuals with cognitive 
difference also identifying as non-binary; these individuals are left out 
in so many ways that it would be a small and positive gesture for us to 
include them in the Tal persona.
A good resource to help think of the importance of this single move: 
Gender Dysphoria and People with Intellectual Disability 
Additionally, given the link to the emerging style recommendation from 
EOWG that Laura referenced, and given that we do have many personas, 
including Tal as a non-binary individual who prefers to be referred to by 
name feels like an important thing for us to do.

Rain


On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 11:24 AM Laura Carlson <
laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Rachael and all,

I prefer option 1 and 3 combined.

If specifying pronouns in our personas is going to help to promote
diversity, equality, and inclusiveness, we should be doing it.

It seems like the Education & Outreach Working Group (EOWG) may be
working on persona pronouns for the WAI Style Guide:
https://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Style#Personas_and_use_cases

Perhaps Shawn may have some guidance for us?

Thank you,

Kind Regards,
Laura

On 3/23/21, Rachael Bradley Montgomery <rachael@accessiblecommunity.org> 
wrote:
> Hello,
>
> Thank you for the thoughtful discussion at today's meeting about the 
plural
> pronoun used in Tal. A resource you can read if this is a new area for 
you
> is https://www.mypronouns.org/
>
> We discussed the following options:
>
>    1. no change
>    2. add it in 1 or 2 places in the main persona
>    3. Tal like to be referred to (pronouns) as Tal/they/them/theirs
>    4. change the persona to remove gender diversity
>    5. use the pronouns as frequently as would be used naturally
>
> COGA had voted against 5 because of readability and translatability
> challenges and compromised with using the minimal pronouns in option 1.  
I
> have created a google document with all of the options at
> 
https://docs.google.com/document/d/18FabK-X1AgOMPqG2YydOrcyl1d89rHxbcfqso2du1vo/edit#

>
> Please take a look and weigh in with your thoughts on how to proceed.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Rachael
> --
> Rachael Montgomery, PhD
> Director, Accessible Community
> rachael@accessiblecommunity.org
>
> "I will paint this day with laughter;
> I will frame this night in song."
>  - Og Mandino
>


-- 
Laura L. Carlson



-- 
Rachael Montgomery, PhD
Director, Accessible Community
rachael@accessiblecommunity.org

"I will paint this day with laughter; 
I will frame this night in song." 
 - Og Mandino