RE: Findable help issues

Hi Lisa,

The definition doesn’t have to be different, but the problem to solve is: How do you determine if a page is within a set?

This wasn’t something that the previous SCs needed, because there was another trigger as well.

It might be possible to create some examples that make it clear, or tweak the text, or use a different definition.

I think it needs someone to sit down and go through a variety of sites and document some easy examples, and some tricky examples. That would highlight if it is feasible (and help updating the understanding document), or a wording update to the SC / term would be best.

-Alastair


From: Lisa Seeman <lisa1seeman@gmail.com>
Sent: 04 February 2021 11:21
To: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com>
Cc: WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>; public-cognitive-a11y-tf@w3.org
Subject: Re: Findable help issues

But why does  the definition have to be different?

Do you want a call tonight or sunday and we can try and hash out some wording.

On Thu, Feb 4, 2021 at 12:33 PM Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com<mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>> wrote:
HI Lisa,


Yes, set of web pages is defined and used by 4 current SCs, the most similar is Consistent Navigation. The problem is that "Consistent Navigation" (and the others) do not require that navigation be shown on all pages in the set, only that where it does show, it must show consistently.
They almost self-define, as if you don’t have the navigation then it isn’t the same set. It is only if you do have the navigation and it is in a different place that it triggers a fail.

Findable Help requires that you know whether a page is in a set, and if certain help mechanisms are available, then it should have those available consistently across the set.

-Alastair


From: Lisa Seeman <lisa1seeman@gmail.com<mailto:lisa1seeman@gmail.com>>
Sent: 04 February 2021 10:10
To: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com<mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>>
Cc: WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>; public-cognitive-a11y-tf@w3.org<mailto:public-cognitive-a11y-tf@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Findable help issues

Isn't it defined at set-of-web-pagesdef<https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/navigation-mechanisms-mult-loc.html#set-of-web-pagesdef> from SC 2.4.5<http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-WCAG20-20081211/#navigation-mechanisms-mult-loc> Multiple Ways?

I am not sure we can do a better job!
Maybe
Set a screen that are used to complete a process, such as filling out a form or learning about a product


On Tue, Feb 2, 2021 at 5:19 PM Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com<mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>> wrote:
Hi Lisa,

Sure, the latest version of the SC text and understanding is here:
https://w3c.github.io/wcag/understanding/findable-help.html


The basic issue here though is that ‘set of web pages’ hasn’t been used in this way before. How does a tester (or even the developer!) know whether a page belongs to a particular set of web pages.

Kind regards,

-Alastair


From: Lisa Seeman <lisa1seeman@gmail.com<mailto:lisa1seeman@gmail.com>>
Sent: 02 February 2021 14:54
To: Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com<mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>>
Cc: WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>; public-cognitive-a11y-tf@w3.org<mailto:public-cognitive-a11y-tf@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Findable help issues

Hi Alistair
Can we have a link to the current wording of the SC?
It might make more sense to me then...
All the best
Lisa

On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 2:47 AM Alastair Campbell <acampbell@nomensa.com<mailto:acampbell@nomensa.com>> wrote:
Hi folks,

Last time we discussed Findable help, there were a couple of issues we couldn’t answer:
https://www.w3.org/2020/12/01-ag-minutes.html#item03


The resolution was to add some examples that try to answer the question. In doing so, we should be able to work out if the SC text will be testable.

The problem was that "Consistent Navigation" doesn't require that navigation be shown on all pages in the set, only that where it does show, it must show consistently.

I think this does put us under a burden of proof to show, either through examples or a definition update, how people can consistently identify whether any page is part of a set.

If that is too difficult, it might be a case for deferment because in Silver the person claiming conformance defines the process/task/set.
Kind regards,

-Alastair

--

@alastc / www.nomensa.com<http://www.nomensa.com>