RE: Question about SC 2.4.3 Focus Order

Thanks everyone!
I filled an issue:
https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/1147


I will attempt to format my proposed edits as pull requests.  Probably not this week though, since it is nothing urgent.



From: jake abma <jake.abma@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2020 8:45 AM
To: Katherine Eng <eng@access-board.gov>
Cc: Newton, Brooks (TR Product) <Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com>; Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com>; WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Question about SC 2.4.3 Focus Order

+1:  yes, of course

Op za 30 mei 2020 om 00:16 schreef Katherine Eng <eng@access-board.gov<mailto:eng@access-board.gov>>:
Brooks wrote: In my understanding, the word “advancing” means moving forward – not just moving from element to element, but moving forward through the page content from element to element.
Same. This was my understanding as well.
Thanks,
Kathy Eng

From: Newton, Brooks (TR Product) <Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com<mailto:Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com>>
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 6:05 PM
To: Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com<mailto:jon.avila@levelaccess.com>>; WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
Subject: RE: Question about SC 2.4.3 Focus Order
Hi Jon,
I agree that with you that it is completely possible for users to move backward in the focus order following a sequence that is different from what the forward focus order is, and still find that the focus order in either direction preserves meaning and operability of the page content.
My point of contention with expanding the SC to cover backwards Tabbing lies in the glossary definition used to explain “navigated sequentially” in the SC 2.4.7 Focus Order normative text.  Using the definition that Bruce pointed to, “navigated sequentially” means “where navigated in the order defined for advancing focus (from one element to the next) using a keyboard interface.”
In my understanding, the word “advancing” means moving forward – not just moving from element to element, but moving forward through the page content from element to element.   What I’m rejecting is the notion that the order defined for advancing focus sets the expectation for what the proper order should be when pressing Shift+Tab  to move backwards through the focus order of the page.
Simple as that.
Brooks

From: Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com<mailto:jon.avila@levelaccess.com>>
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 4:42 PM
To: WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
Subject: RE: Question about SC 2.4.3 Focus Order
Hi Brooks I don’t see your description of this case and the need for a meaningful reverse tab order to be in conflict.  But I think the finer point that Kathy makes is that both must be meaningful but that doesn’t mean they always have to be exactly opposites – although most of the time they will.
Jonathan

From: Newton, Brooks (TR Product) <Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com<mailto:Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com>>
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 4:17 PM
To: Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>>; Katherine Eng <eng@access-board.gov<mailto:eng@access-board.gov>>; Bruce Bailey <Bailey@Access-Board.gov<mailto:Bailey@Access-Board.gov>>; WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
Cc: 508 <508@Access-Board.gov<mailto:508@Access-Board.gov>>
Subject: RE: Question about SC 2.4.3 Focus Order

Hi Andrew,

Here are a couple of scenarios I was thinking of:

Scenario 1

As a keyboard user, I Tab into the page content from the browser address bar and continue Tabbing forward and get half-way through the focus order of the page.  At this point, a survey modal pops up, my focus is appropriately shifted up to the first actionable item in the modal window.  Let's say I answer the survey, submit my response, then close the modal to return to where I was mid-way through the page before the modal survey popped up.  My focus is actively shifted up to and back from the modal content so that I don’t fall into the problem outlined in F85: Failure of Success Criterion 2.4.3 due to using dialogs or menus that are not adjacent to their trigger control in the sequential navigation order<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2FWAI%2FWCAG21%2FTechniques%2Ffailures%2FF85.html&data=02%7C01%7Cbailey%40access-board.gov%7Ce2c446eadbe04e1fcd8708d8049775ba%7Cfc6093f5e55e4f93b2cf26d0822201c9%7C0%7C0%7C637264395855740302&sdata=iLggzog77KaGcNUxcmSiZcSyE24fVLOIHisXJ3PtOkA%3D&reserved=0> .   I continue Tabbing forward through all of the main page content, then decide to Shift+Tab backwards through the focus order to the top of the page.  Because I've already answered the survey on the page, I don't get the modal to pop up on my way backward through the focus order.  The focus order forward through the content is not the reverse focus order moving backwards.

Scenario 2

The same phenomenon would be true if instead of a survey modal, I got a pop up modal warning me of an impending timeout as I'm Tabbing half-way through the page focus order moving forward.  When the modal pops up, my focus shifts to an "Extend Session" button, which I press.  Now, I'm back where I was when the modal popped up and I continue my journey forward through the focus order.  Then at some arbitrary point, I decide to move backwards by Shift+Tab.  I may not get the time out modal in my way backward through the Tab stops on the page.  In this scenario, it’s also likely that there's a different focus order moving forward as there was when I was moving backward.

Brooks



-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>>
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 12:43 PM
To: Newton, Brooks (TR Product) <Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com<mailto:Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com>>; Katherine Eng <eng@access-board.gov<mailto:eng@access-board.gov>>; Bruce Bailey <Bailey@Access-Board.gov<mailto:Bailey@Access-Board.gov>>; WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
Cc: 508 <508@Access-Board.gov<mailto:508@Access-Board.gov>>
Subject: Re: Question about SC 2.4.3 Focus Order

Brooks, it sounds like you are describing a non-modal dialog rather than a modal dialog.

For a model the navigation would go from the browser chrome to the modal and back to the browser and the same in reverse, never getting to the page.

For a non-modal, I believe it would do the same.

Thanks,

AWK

Andrew Kirkpatrick
Head of Accessibility
Adobe
akirkpat@adobe.com<mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>



On 5/29/20, 12:33 PM, "Newton, Brooks (TR Product)" <Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com<mailto:Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com>> wrote:

    -1

    What about in the event of a survey modal popping up on its own.  Maybe I'll encounter this modal window content and its associated stops in the focus order on the way forward through the page.  But, on the way backward through the page using Shift+Tab, I'll probably not have that pop-up survey modal in the focus order.

    Brooks



    -----Original Message-----

    From: Katherine Eng <eng@access-board.gov<mailto:eng@access-board.gov>>
    Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 11:32 AM
   To: Katherine Eng <eng@access-board.gov<mailto:eng@access-board.gov>>; Bruce Bailey <Bailey@Access-Board.gov<mailto:Bailey@Access-Board.gov>>; WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
    Cc: 508 <508@Access-Board.gov<mailto:508@Access-Board.gov>>

    Subject: RE: Question about SC 2.4.3 Focus Order

    The first line of my response was removed. It was

    -1: no



    -----Original Message-----

    From: Katherine Eng <eng@access-board.gov<mailto:eng@access-board.gov>>
    Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 12:28 PM
    To: Bruce Bailey <Bailey@Access-Board.gov<mailto:Bailey@Access-Board.gov>>; WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
    Cc: 508 <508@Access-Board.gov<mailto:508@Access-Board.gov>>

    Subject: RE: Question about SC 2.4.3 Focus Order

    If forward "navigation sequences affect meaning", going backward would mean the meaning would be lost. I wouldn't expect a page with meaningful forward focus order to preserve the meaning when navigated backwards.

    If going forward and backward do not affect meaning, then 2.4.3 would not apply.

    Thanks,

    Kathy Eng



    -----Original Message-----

    From: Bruce Bailey <Bailey@Access-Board.gov<mailto:Bailey@Access-Board.gov>>
    Sent: Friday, May 29, 2020 11:46 AM
    To: WCAG list (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>) <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
    Cc: 508 <508@Access-Board.gov<mailto:508@Access-Board.gov>>

    Subject: Question about SC 2.4.3 Focus Order

    Fellow AG'lers, I am asking that you indulge me in a quick straw poll:  Does SC 2.4.3 Focus Order include backwards navigation?

    +1:  yes, of course
      0:  not sure / maybe
    -1:  no, of course not

    FWIW, the associated Understanding Doc has a contradiction between the third paragraph of Intent and the first example provide.  I will be filling an issue (and, hopefully, following up with a pull request) about that, but really I first need a sense of the group consensus before that can happen.

     Follows is 2.4.3 and the relevant affiliated definition.

    Success Criterion 2.4.3 Focus Order (Level A):  If a Web page can be navigated sequentially and the navigation sequences affect meaning or operation, focusable components receive focus in an order that preserves meaning and operability

    navigated sequentially:  navigated in the order defined for advancing focus (from one element to the next) using a keyboard interface

    www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/focus-order.html<http://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/focus-order.html>
    www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#focus-order<http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#focus-order>
    www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#dfn-navigated-sequentially<http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#dfn-navigated-sequentially>