Re: Sentence in COGA Note

David,

Thank you for taking the time to summarize the goals you had for your
suggestions - it will help us to better discuss possible solutions.

I agree with Lisa that helping designers and developers understand the user
needs and how they can meet them is this document's primary goal but I
personally do not see the goals you outlined as being in direct conflict
with COGA's primary one. We will discuss this some in today's COGA meeting
and bring suggestions on ways forward back to the AG to discuss on May 19th.

Best regards,

Rachael
(COGA hat and personal opinion)

On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 8:23 AM lisa.seeman <lisa.seeman@zoho.com> wrote:

> Also note that we have taken great care to not be similar to wcag or step
> on toes. For example we have patterns and user needs rather that success
> criteria. We stay away from words like "guideline" etc.
>
> Or advice is has a lot on user testing  and working with the user, all of
> which creates a very diffrent feel.
>
> Until a month ago we had the sections on process and the user before the
> design guide. maybe it is the new order that is creating the impression
> that this is similar to wcag?
>
> Should we change it back? Note that the new order is cleaner and more
> understandable. But maybe it is coursing problems.
>
> Maybe the first issue is to see how many people feel there is a real
> problem of blaiming the author, or confusion with wcag.
>
> All the best
>
> Lisa Seeman
>
> LinkedIn <http://il.linkedin.com/in/lisaseeman/>, Twitter
> <https://twitter.com/SeemanLisa>
>
>
>
> ---- On Thu, 07 May 2020 15:14:13 +0300 * lisa.seeman@zoho.com
> <lisa.seeman@zoho.com> * wrote ----
>
> I disagree with David's goals.(no offence David)
>  I think the focus should be on makeing sure authors known what to do and
> why to do it. Or:
>
> 1:Helping people understand the user need
> 2:Helping  people understand the extent of  user need and why it is an
> accessibility issue
> 3:Helping people know how to meet the user need
>
> I cant agree with anything that ditracts from those goals
>
> We also added editing goals of consistentcy spelling and grammar,  and
> making it easy to understand. We have an editing guide on our wiki to that
> purpose. I can send it when i am back at my desk.
>
> All the best
>
> Lisa Seeman
>
> LinkedIn <http://il.linkedin.com/in/lisaseeman/>, Twitter
> <https://twitter.com/SeemanLisa>
>
>
>
> ---- On Thu, 07 May 2020 13:41:52 +0300 * david@can-adapt.com
> <david@can-adapt.com> * wrote ----
>
> Thanks Steve
>
> I'd like to propose theses overarching editorial goals:
>
> - Assuring we place the focus on the content rather than the author in our
> notes
> - Maintaining a conciliatory tone with all stakeholders
> - Ensuring a note is not confused with WCAG requirements which were won
> through careful consensus.
> - Ensuring that working group notes don't undermine the credibility of
> WCAG.
>
> I hope the edits I proposed in the survey will help attain those goals
> while guarding the COGA recommendations and core message of the note. I'm
> not as concerned about specific wording of sentences.
>
> Cheers,
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
> Mobile:  613.806.9005
>
> LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
> twitter.com/davidmacd
>
> GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald>
>
> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/>
>
>
>
> *  Adapting the web to all users*
> *            Including those with disabilities*
>
> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>
>
> On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 4:46 AM Steve Lee <stevelee@w3.org> wrote:
>
> That is really helpful summary Laura, thank you. The readability scores
> are definitely useful.
>
> I want to thank David and the AG for this positive action so we can
> firmly present to diverse stakeholders the best practices that meet the
> needs of people with cognitive disabilities.
>
> As Lisa mentioned, in addition to the usual editorial requirements that
> AG aim for, the Coga TF are keen to ensure the language and presentation
> used in their publications is also suitable for an audience where some
> have cognitive or learning disabilities.
>
> That does influence the choice of language and grammar within the
> constraints of the highly technical content. In some parts of the
> Content Usable note there has been a lot of TF discussion to mould the
> language to best fit this extra requirment. Less so in other places.
>
> While such "Easy Reading" or plain English has much in common with good
> word smithing (as addressed by readability scores), some aspects may be
> less familiar.
>
> Would it be useful for the TF to:
>
> * Use Editor Notes to mark areas where particular effort has been
> expended on the language.
> * Outline or present to AG an introduction to key features of the coga
> friendly language that the TF aim to use here.
>
> Steve
>
>
> On 06/05/2020 19:49, Laura Carlson wrote:
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > I think the following are the suggested verbiage so far. Hope I didn't
> > miss any.
> >
> > I added on 3 more options (#5-7) for consideration.
> >
> > Current:
> > 1. "People with cognitive and learning disabilities may not be able to
> > effectively use web content because of the design and content choices
> > of the author."
> > * Readability: Grade 15 per hemingwayapp.com
> >
> > David's:
> > 2. "Design and content choices can impact the content in ways that
> > make it difficult or impossible for some users with cognitive and
> > learning disabilities to use this content."
> > * Readability: Post-graduate per hemingwayapp.com
> >
> > JF's:
> > 3. "People with cognitive and learning disabilities may be negatively
> > impacted and unintentionally blocked from effectively using some web
> > content due to certain design and content choices."
> > * Readability Post-graduate per hemingwayapp.com
> >
> > Chuck's:
> > 4. "Design and content choices can impact usage in ways that make it
> > difficult or impossible for some people with cognitive and learning
> > disabilities."
> > * Readability: Grade 15 per hemingwayapp.com
> >
> > Three more options from me:
> >
> > 5. "People with cognitive and learning disabilities may not be able to
> > effectively use web content, if usable design and content choices are
> > not made."
> > * Readability: Grade 14 per hemingwayapp.com
> >
> > 6. "Design and content choices impact use. People with cognitive and
> > learning disabilities may be hindered or completely locked out
> > depending on these choices."
> > * Readability: Grade 11 per hemingwayapp.com
> >
> > 7. "Design and content choices impact use. Choices made can make use
> > difficult or impossible for some people with cognitive and learning
> > disabilities."
> > * Readability: Grade 10 per hemingwayapp.com
> >
> > Kind Regards,
> > Laura
> >
> > On 5/6/20, David MacDonald <david@can-adapt.com> wrote:
> >> Hi Lisa
> >>
> >> Could you clarify?
> >> It seems to me the suggested solution is in the present tense in the
> active
> >> voice?
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> David MacDonald
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
> >> Mobile:  613.806.9005
> >>
> >> LinkedIn
> >> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
> >>
> >> twitter.com/davidmacd
> >>
> >> GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald>
> >>
> >> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> *  Adapting the web to all users*
> >> *            Including those with disabilities*
> >>
> >> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
> >> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 12:44 PM lisa.seeman <lisa.seeman@zoho.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> The problem is the voicing and tense, not the word count.
> >>>
> >>> I think the original was clearer.
> >>>
> >>> .All the best
> >>>
> >>> Lisa Seeman
> >>>
> >>> LinkedIn <http://il.linkedin.com/in/lisaseeman/>, Twitter
> >>> <https://twitter.com/SeemanLisa>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ---- On Wed, 06 May 2020 17:55:05 +0300 *David MacDonald
> >>> <david@can-adapt.com <david@can-adapt.com>>* wrote ----
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Hi Lisa
> >>>
> >>> The last suggested wording is 23 words:
> >>>
> >>> "Design and content choices can impact usage in ways that make it
> >>> difficult or impossible for some people with cognitive and learning
> >>> disabilities.”
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>   I think this is simpler than the original which is 25 words and this
> >>> rewrite is putting the focus on the content rather than the author. At
> >>> any
> >>> rate, the current document is 200 pages long with plenty of sentences
> >>> that are not as simple as this. I think this rewrite is fine.
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>> David MacDonald
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *CanAdapt* *Solutions Inc.*
> >>> Mobile:  613.806.9005
> >>>
> >>> LinkedIn
> >>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
> >>>
> >>> twitter.com/davidmacd
> >>>
> >>> GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald>
> >>>
> >>> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *  Adapting the web to all users*
> >>> *            Including those with disabilities*
> >>>
> >>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
> >>> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 10:05 PM lisa.seeman <lisa.seeman@zoho.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> When possible we try and use easier language. This includes easy common
> >>> words, short sentences, active voice and remove extra words.
> >>>
> >>> Removing extra words that do not add to the meaning is also important.
> >>>
> >>> All the best
> >>>
> >>> Lisa Seeman
> >>>
> >>> LinkedIn <http://il.linkedin.com/in/lisaseeman/>, Twitter
> >>> <https://twitter.com/SeemanLisa>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ---- On Tue, 05 May 2020 22:30:52 +0300* charles.hall@mrm.com
> >>> <charles.hall@mrm.com> * wrote ----
> >>>
> >>> If ‘usage’ is the functional outcome that is impacted, perhaps this is
> >>&gt; even simpler?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> “Design and content choices can impact usage in ways that make it
> >>> difficult or impossible for some people with cognitive and learning
> >>> disabilities.”
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> So if you stripped away the modifiers, it simply states “choices impact
> >>> people”.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *Charles Hall* // Senior UX Architect
> >>>
> >>> Invited Expert, W3C Accessibility Guidelines Working Group & Silver
> Task
> >>> Force
> >>>
> >>> Chair, W3C Inclusive Design for the Immersive Web Community Group
> >>>
> >>> Learning Ambassador, MRM
> >>>
> >>> Member, Global Diversity Coalition, McCann Worldgroup
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> (he//him)
> >>>
> >>> W +1.248.203.8723
> >>>
> >>> M +1.248.225.8179
> >>>
> >>> 360 W Maple Rd Third Avenue, Birmingham MI 48009
> >>>
> >>> mrm.com <https://www.mrm.com/>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [image: MRM]
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Cannes Network of the Year
> >>>
> >>> Effie's Most Creatively Effective Global Network 2018, 2019
> >>>
> >>> IPG Agency Inclusion Vanguard – Agency of the Year 2019
> >>>
> >>> Adweek 2019 Global Agency of the Year
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *From: *David MacDonald <david@can-adapt.com>
> >>> *Date: *Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 2:54 PM
> >>> *To: *"Hall, Charles (DET-MRM)" <charles.hall@mrm.com>
> >>> *Cc: *Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com>, David Fazio <
> >>> dfazio@helixopp.com>, WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, "lisa.seeman" <
> >>> lisa.seeman@zoho.com>, WCAG Editors <team-wcag-editors@w3.org>
> >>> *Subject: *[EXTERNAL] Re: Sentence in COGA Note
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> HI Charles
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Would this work for you
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> "Design and content choices can impact perceivability,
> understandability
> >>> and/or usability in ways that make it difficult or impossible for some
> >>> people with cognitive and learning disabilities to use this content."
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>> David MacDonald
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *CanAdapt* *Solutions Inc.*
> >>>
> >>> Mobile:  613.806.9005
> >>>
> >>> LinkedIn
> >>>
> >>> <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.linkedin.com_in_davidmacdonald100&d=DwMFaQ&c=Ftw_YSVcGmqQBvrGwAZugGylNRkk-uER0-5bY94tjsc&r=FbsK8fvOGBHiAasJukQr6o_PbCmVftVpHNrk4xUDIYM&m=Flkll7FKnnnRneceIz2fTxz6N4u9aEuPq1NSWTqvKOE&s=X6jltlpXDZCPaiIhZ-Ln0mnkrDebfGnrXn54nI_QszE&e=
> >
> >>>
> >>> twitter.com/davidmacd
> >>> <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__twitter.com_davidmacd&d=DwMFaQ&c=Ftw_YSVcGmqQBvrGwAZugGylNRkk-uER0-5bY94tjsc&r=FbsK8fvOGBHiAasJukQr6o_PbCmVftVpHNrk4xUDIYM&m=Flkll7FKnnnRneceIz2fTxz6N4u9aEuPq1NSWTqvKOE&s=ccUf88mJZ_hzpRzjShhEt-1YzazLrNsJrxeC_7jVTjQ&e=
> >
> >>>
> >>> GitHub
> >>> <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_DavidMacDonald&d=DwMFaQ&c=Ftw_YSVcGmqQBvrGwAZugGylNRkk-uER0-5bY94tjsc&r=FbsK8fvOGBHiAasJukQr6o_PbCmVftVpHNrk4xUDIYM&m=Flkll7FKnnnRneceIz2fTxz6N4u9aEuPq1NSWTqvKOE&s=fvdJdsGQPOvq-jf7rx_vaSbbM6AUOrcpjhnos6JxybU&e=
> >
> >>>
> >>> www.Can-Adapt.com
> >>> <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.can-2Dadapt.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=Ftw_YSVcGmqQBvrGwAZugGylNRkk-uER0-5bY94tjsc&r=FbsK8fvOGBHiAasJukQr6o_PbCmVftVpHNrk4xUDIYM&m=Flkll7FKnnnRneceIz2fTxz6N4u9aEuPq1NSWTqvKOE&s=1B0umGaeI7U_rorQO32e-lENVFaZeyKW6Fc9P6sPy4I&e=
> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *  Adapting the web to all users*
> >>>
> >>> *            Including those with disabilities*
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
> >>> <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.davidmacd.com_disclaimer.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=Ftw_YSVcGmqQBvrGwAZugGylNRkk-uER0-5bY94tjsc&r=FbsK8fvOGBHiAasJukQr6o_PbCmVftVpHNrk4xUDIYM&m=Flkll7FKnnnRneceIz2fTxz6N4u9aEuPq1NSWTqvKOE&s=9V0oG4s-oHpeRGPP799MTlRJbmQshBzXkOZfFXmodXc&e=
> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 2:38 PM Hall, Charles (DET-MRM) <
> >>> charles.hall@mrm.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I too like shifting from creator to creation. However, this now implies
> >>> that the impact is to the content itself versus the impact being on the
> >>> user. It also uses the word content several times.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *Charles Hall* // Senior UX Architect
> >>>
> >>> Invited Expert, W3C Accessibility Guidelines Working Group & Silver
> Task
> >>> Force
> >>>
> >>> Chair, W3C Inclusive Design for the Immersive Web Community Group
> >>>
> >>> Learning Ambassador, MRM
> >>>
> >>> Member, Global Diversity Coalition, McCann Worldgroup
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> (he//him)
> >>>
> >>> W +1.248.203.8723
> >>>
> >>> M +1.248.225.8179
> >>>
> >>> 360 W Maple Rd Third Avenue, Birmingham MI 48009
> >>>
> >>> mrm.com <https://www.mrm.com/>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [image: MRM]
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Cannes Network of the Year
> >>>
> >>> Effie's Most Creatively Effective Global Network 2018, 2019
> >>>
> >>> IPG Agency Inclusion Vanguard – Agency of the Year 2019
> >>>
> >>> Adweek 2019 Global Agency of the Year
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *From: *Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com>
> >>> *Date: *Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 2:37 PM
> >>> *To: *David Fazio <dfazio@helixopp.com>, David MacDonald <
> >>> david@can-adapt.com>
> >>> *Cc: *WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, "lisa.seeman" <lisa.seeman@zoho.com>,
> >>> WCAG Editors <team-wcag-editors@w3.org>
> >>> *Subject: *[EXTERNAL] RE: Sentence in COGA Note
> >>> *Resent-From: *<w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> >>> *Resent-Date: *Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 2:37 PM
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> That wording is fine with me too.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Jonathan
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *From:* David Fazio <dfazio@helixopp.com>
> >>> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 5, 2020 2:24 PM
> >>> *To:* David MacDonald <david@can-adapt.com>
> >>> *Cc:* WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>; lisa.seeman <lisa.seeman@zoho.com>;
> WCAG
> >>> Editors <team-wcag-editors@w3.org>
> >>> *Subject:* Re: Sentence in COGA Note
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *CAUTION:* This email originated from outside of the organization. Do
> not
> >>> click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and
> know
> >>> the content is safe.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I do see how you’ve shifted the lens with the verbiage. The new wording
> >>> is
> >>> less abrasive. I wouldn’t oppose the change.
> >>>
> >>> This message was Sent from my iPhone. Please excuse any typographic
> >>> errors.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On May 5, 2020, at 11:15 AM, David MacDonald <david@can-adapt.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi all
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> on the call today there was quite a lively discussion around this
> >>> sentence.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> CURRENT
> >>>
> >>> "People with cognitive and learning disabilities may not be able to
> >>> effectively use web content because of the design and content choices
> of
> >>> the author."
> >>>
> >>> I've gone back and tried to capture the essence of Lisa's rationale,
> >>> while
> >>> steering the focus to the design/content and rather than the author. I
> >>> also
> >>> used John Avila's word "impact" rather than "because".
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> SUGGESTED
> >>> Design and content choices can impact the content in ways that make it
> >>> difficult or impossible for some users with cognitive and learning
> >>> disabilities to use this content.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>> David MacDonald
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *CanAdapt* *Solutions Inc.*
> >>>
> >>> Mobile:  613.806.9005
> >>>
> >>> LinkedIn
> >>>
> >>> <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.linkedin.com_in_davidmacdonald100&d=DwMGaQ&c=Ftw_YSVcGmqQBvrGwAZugGylNRkk-uER0-5bY94tjsc&r=FbsK8fvOGBHiAasJukQr6o_PbCmVftVpHNrk4xUDIYM&m=W-Y3PtnjmRiJmsqGzeOiNjKupbVb1jh_vkzz0g-DVrM&s=b_3H2GBGu0u168NpbPeZqP2ukgtNLUQdGAU4g18xOgc&e=
> >
> >>>
> >>> twitter.com/davidmacd
> >>> <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__twitter.com_davidmacd&d=DwMGaQ&c=Ftw_YSVcGmqQBvrGwAZugGylNRkk-uER0-5bY94tjsc&r=FbsK8fvOGBHiAasJukQr6o_PbCmVftVpHNrk4xUDIYM&m=W-Y3PtnjmRiJmsqGzeOiNjKupbVb1jh_vkzz0g-DVrM&s=iEQiXnnhHjnpFMYjCPuZ1WQTwUtk8bBEnVAjBpWPX8g&e=
> >
> >>>
> >>> GitHub
> >>> <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_DavidMacDonald&d=DwMGaQ&c=Ftw_YSVcGmqQBvrGwAZugGylNRkk-uER0-5bY94tjsc&r=FbsK8fvOGBHiAasJukQr6o_PbCmVftVpHNrk4xUDIYM&m=W-Y3PtnjmRiJmsqGzeOiNjKupbVb1jh_vkzz0g-DVrM&s=ekwltzAhUlT_xnZHYeK_XuaQ1C-C2obEQARZaPKEDfU&e=
> >
> >>>
> >>> www.Can-Adapt.com
> >>> <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.can-2Dadapt.com_&d=DwMGaQ&c=Ftw_YSVcGmqQBvrGwAZugGylNRkk-uER0-5bY94tjsc&r=FbsK8fvOGBHiAasJukQr6o_PbCmVftVpHNrk4xUDIYM&m=W-Y3PtnjmRiJmsqGzeOiNjKupbVb1jh_vkzz0g-DVrM&s=rECAAQzJ_O-gmvCHPKHOiKE1akjMyh_PMzkabVwOdPo&e=
> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *  Adapting the web to all users*
> >>>
> >>> *            Including those with disabilities*
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
> >>> <
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.davidmacd.com_disclaimer.html&d=DwMGaQ&c=Ftw_YSVcGmqQBvrGwAZugGylNRkk-uER0-5bY94tjsc&r=FbsK8fvOGBHiAasJukQr6o_PbCmVftVpHNrk4xUDIYM&m=W-Y3PtnjmRiJmsqGzeOiNjKupbVb1jh_vkzz0g-DVrM&s=p_jDytbKimo9I4wXIwJAdCFeUQYG9pVyDlDZcGE_1Kc&e=
> >
> >>>
> >>> This message contains information which may be confidential and
> >>> privileged. Unless you are the intended recipient (or authorized to
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

-- 
Rachael Montgomery, PhD
Director, Accessible Community
rachael@accessiblecommunity.org

"I will paint this day with laughter;
I will frame this night in song."
 - Og Mandino