RE: Crowd Source Request: Examples of pre in pages you use. from Jonathan Avila on 2019-01-31 (w3c-wai-gl@w3.org from January to March 2019)

From: Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 16:43:43 +0000
To: John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
CC: "Newton, Brooks (Legal)" <Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com>, Wayne Dick <wayneedick@gmail.com>, "Patrick H. Lauke" <redux@splintered.co.uk>, WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Message-ID: <DM6PR03MB4281A1D5A875F36D25809C16F1910@DM6PR03MB4281.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Ø  No argument, but when line-wrapping introduces additional line-breaks, *THEN* it impacts the formatted meaning, as in the hypothetical example of the Haiku, which MUST be three lines (and not four). The 3-line composition is integral to the meaning/composition of Haiku's.

I used line wrapping in coding and in most situations there is always an indicator that the line has wrapped without a line break.  So line wrapping without break is something that is common and could be shown in different ways.  They are in my opinion 2 distinct things.  .

Jonathan

From: John Foliot [mailto:john.foliot@deque.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2019 11:31 AM
To: Jonathan Avila
Cc: Newton, Brooks (Legal); Wayne Dick; Patrick H. Lauke; WCAG
Subject: Re: Crowd Source Request: Examples of pre in pages you use.

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Hi Jon,

No argument, but when line-wrapping introduces additional line-breaks, *THEN* it impacts the formatted meaning, as in the hypothetical example of the Haiku, which MUST be three lines (and not four). The 3-line composition is integral to the meaning/composition of Haiku's.

JF

On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 10:20 AM Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com<mailto:jon.avila@levelaccess.com>> wrote:

>  While not an “academic,” I do have a master’s degree in English with an emphasis in poetry composition.   From my limited perspective, I think JF is right here. Preservation of formatting matters, when the format is integral to the meaning of the message.  The importance of displaying the line breaks as intended by the author of a poem is a reason to not automatically fail <pre> content under SC 1.4.10 - Reflow.

The point Patrick and I were trying to make is that you can express line breaks without pre using <br /> -- it is called the line break element.

Jonathan

From: Newton, Brooks (Legal) [mailto:Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com<mailto:Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com>]
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2019 10:59 AM
To: John Foliot; Wayne Dick
Cc: Patrick H. Lauke; WCAG
Subject: RE: Crowd Source Request: Examples of pre in pages you use.

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

While not an “academic,” I do have a master’s degree in English with an emphasis in poetry composition.   From my limited perspective, I think JF is right here. Preservation of formatting matters, when the format is integral to the meaning of the message.  The importance of displaying the line breaks as intended by the author of a poem is a reason to not automatically fail <pre> content under SC 1.4.10 - Reflow.

Brooks

From: John Foliot [mailto:john.foliot@deque.com<mailto:john.foliot@deque.com>]
Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2019 9:43 AM
To: Wayne Dick <wayneedick@gmail.com<mailto:wayneedick@gmail.com>>
Cc: Patrick H. Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk<mailto:redux@splintered.co.uk>>; WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: Crowd Source Request: Examples of pre in pages you use.

...which, I think we can say, is evidence that we can't simply say "Don't use <pre> because it = not accessible".

I'm all for warnings, and SHOULD language (RFC 2119 style) going forward, but we have to recognize that sometimes, just sometimes, horizontal scrolling cannot be avoided (and... that's understandable and OK). Any emergent SC or Technique that speaks to this concern will require exception language for those edge and corner cases, is all.

JF

On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 9:37 AM Wayne Dick <wayneedick@gmail.com<mailto:wayneedick@gmail.com>> wrote:
Jon,
I did think of e e cummings. Or should I say:
e      e
               cummings.

Wayne

On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 12:33 AM Patrick H. Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk<mailto:redux@splintered.co.uk>> wrote:
On 31/01/2019 01:25, Jonathan Avila wrote:
> While I am not an expert on this either – I believe for a 3 line Haiku
> it is the line breaks that matter and thus br would be sufficient.
> However, there clearly are other poems such as Buffalo Bill’s by E E
> Cummings where the spacing matter to the artistic prose.
>
> https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/47244/buffalo-bill-s<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.poetryfoundation.org_poems_47244_buffalo-2Dbill-2Ds&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=lVcN9Fq4HJpGjJE_qepMJnXlmJ_Tu_W7j-a39R-DYts&e=>

Now this is one of those examples that I had in mind when talking about
"futurist poetry" - where the overall typographic layout (beyond just
line breaks, but including spacing and overall visual layout and
arrangement of letters) carries meaning (in some cases resulting in
something close to word/ASCII art)

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/learn/glossary-terms/futurism<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.poetryfoundation.org_learn_glossary-2Dterms_futurism&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=as42kLl7cesWYXzveXH3thiLB7Rx2146DLPMZ_m76Bg&e=>

P

> I was hoping that we might be able to gain some insight from the BANA
> braille rules but they aren’t as useful as I’d hope.
>
> http://www.brailleauthority.org/formats/2016manual-web/section13.html#_Toc462495173<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.brailleauthority.org_formats_2016manual-2Dweb_section13.html-23-5FToc462495173&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=vvL-YznOuIrkVsZKIXipi4V39oYpJesJEvW7dWPtUDE&e=>
>
> http://www.brailleauthority.org/formats/2016manual-web/section13.html#_Sample_4:_Poem<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.brailleauthority.org_formats_2016manual-2Dweb_section13.html-23-5FSample-5F4-3A-5FPoem&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=sd8upn3_HPv031cVtSQOZZmXpqPESi9o7si4l-QKv-0&e=>
>
> There are also single line and single word Haikus….
>
> Jonathan
>
> *From:* John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com<mailto:john.foliot@deque.com>>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 30, 2019 7:55 PM
> *To:* Patrick H. Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk<mailto:redux@splintered.co.uk>>
> *Cc:* WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
> *Subject:* Re: Crowd Source Request: Examples of pre in pages you use.
>
> *CAUTION:*This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
> the content is safe.
>
> Hi Patrick,
>
> I'm not a Poly Lit Major, but I believe the formatting of both of those
> examples is in fact important; certainly the Haiku, which is
> specifically defined as 3 lines with the 5,7,5 syllable construct.
> Wrapping (for example) the middle line would certainly break that
> construct, and it would no longer be a Haiku...
>
> I also quoted the specific pattern of the Robert Service poem, where the
> 4-line pattern is also an important literary construct; I can't comment
> on *how* important, but I do know there is some importance attached. Any
> academics out there who could weigh in?
>
> JF
>
> (Sent from my mobile, apologies for any spelling mistakes)
>
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 6:07 PM Patrick H. Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk<mailto:redux@splintered.co.uk>
> <mailto:redux@splintered.co.uk<mailto:redux@splintered.co.uk>> wrote:
>
>     On 30/01/2019 23:42, John Foliot wrote:
>      > Two examples when formatted text is important (if not critical):
>      >
>      > Haiku: (a traditional form of Japanese poetry. Haiku poems
>     consist of 3
>      > lines. The first and last lines of a Haiku have 5 syllables and the
>      > middle line has 7 syllables. The lines rarely rhyme.)
>      >
>      >     The summer river:
>      >     although there is a bridge, my horse
>      >     goes through the water.
>      >
>      > Example of a Robert Service
>      > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_W._Service<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Robert-5FW.-5FService&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=z99MDALlMI-za1-5e8pvja0SHcruOrMPgZGS_WKZ_3A&e=>> poem
>      > <https://mypoeticside.com/show-classic-poem-26688<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mypoeticside.com_show-2Dclassic-2Dpoem-2D26688&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=apvmKVu8DPdNVUdtdkRQElYrwZVOmgfJZOtUzmPRX80&e=>>: (This poem
>     follows a
>      > regular pattern of four-line stanzas composed of two rhyming
>     couplets.)
>      >
>      >     On a Christmas Day we were mushing our way over the Dawson trail.
>      >     Talk of your cold! through the parka's fold it stabbed like a
>     driven
>      >     nail.
>      >     If our eyes we'd close, then the lashes froze till sometimes we
>      >     couldn't see;
>      >     It wasn't much fun, but the only one to whimper was Sam McGee.
>      >
>      >
>      > In these examples, the formatting of the text also conveys the
>      > Pentameter <https://literarydevices.net/pentameter/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__literarydevices.net_pentameter_&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=YZNcpmo4-1vtkTP24sP0cWKorVbmJIg3yiCofgECzns&e=>>of the
>     rhymes/poems.
>      > Conveying this literary device is wholly dependent on the
>     formatting of
>      > the text:
>
>     Is it the formatting here, or is it just the line breaks that are
>     important? And is a haiku not semantically better marked up not with a
>     <pre> element, but rather with something like a humble <p> with
>     appropriate (and meaningful) <br> line breaks?
>
>     P
>     --
>     Patrick H. Lauke
>
>     www.splintered.co.uk<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.splintered.co.uk&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=PARzirkd9AL1flHnRVhDbcjzQBjImSiBnuEuuACwy1s&e=> <http://www.splintered.co.uk<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.splintered.co.uk&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=PARzirkd9AL1flHnRVhDbcjzQBjImSiBnuEuuACwy1s&e=>> |
>     https://github.com/patrickhlauke<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_patrickhlauke&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=sSlw3s4zSH62K-2efeGficg1yflaexyDt6NJri_pPHk&e=>
>     http://flickr.com/photos/redux/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__flickr.com_photos_redux_&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=b5S6goNfEmiJkER6_8qD8bOHrQrpGfkOyJvAY7UqFBw&e=> | http://redux.deviantart.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__redux.deviantart.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=eS2XeOIjv8TZnAhn3brOoMHeca8ifLterTLoB9MGySw&e=>
>     twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
>


--
Patrick H. Lauke

www.splintered.co.uk<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.splintered.co.uk&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=PARzirkd9AL1flHnRVhDbcjzQBjImSiBnuEuuACwy1s&e=> | https://github.com/patrickhlauke<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_patrickhlauke&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=sSlw3s4zSH62K-2efeGficg1yflaexyDt6NJri_pPHk&e=>
http://flickr.com/photos/redux/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__flickr.com_photos_redux_&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=b5S6goNfEmiJkER6_8qD8bOHrQrpGfkOyJvAY7UqFBw&e=> | http://redux.deviantart.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__redux.deviantart.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=eS2XeOIjv8TZnAhn3brOoMHeca8ifLterTLoB9MGySw&e=>
twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke


--
John Foliot | Principal Accessibility Strategist | W3C AC Representative
Deque Systems - Accessibility for Good
deque.com<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__deque.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=7ffDMrrofDQfIyxYafA-uds18n1cuVQxVsv4jkU_VXE&e=>



--
John Foliot | Principal Accessibility Strategist | W3C AC Representative
Deque Systems - Accessibility for Good
deque.com<http://deque.com/>
Received on Thursday, 31 January 2019 16:44:09 UTC