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Re: Crowd Source Request: Examples of pre in pages you use.

From: John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 10:31:09 -0600
Message-ID: <CAKdCpxxC4ZUAxWQivyxO7ZpUjoErwV4yEJayMqWdqKWWcXzVcg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com>
Cc: "Newton, Brooks (Legal)" <Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com>, Wayne Dick <wayneedick@gmail.com>, "Patrick H. Lauke" <redux@splintered.co.uk>, WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Hi Jon,

No argument, but when line-wrapping introduces additional line-breaks,
*THEN* it impacts the formatted meaning, as in the hypothetical example of
the Haiku, which MUST be three lines (and not four). The 3-line composition
is integral to the meaning/composition of Haiku's.

JF

On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 10:20 AM Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com>
wrote:

> Ø  While not an “academic,” I do have a master’s degree in English with
> an emphasis in poetry composition.   From my limited perspective, I think
> JF is right here. Preservation of formatting matters, when the format is
> integral to the meaning of the message.  The importance of displaying the
> line breaks as intended by the author of a poem is a reason to not
> automatically fail <pre> content under SC 1.4.10 - Reflow.
>
>
>
> The point Patrick and I were trying to make is that you can express line
> breaks without pre using <br /> -- it is called the line break element.
>
>
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
> *From:* Newton, Brooks (Legal) [mailto:Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 31, 2019 10:59 AM
> *To:* John Foliot; Wayne Dick
> *Cc:* Patrick H. Lauke; WCAG
> *Subject:* RE: Crowd Source Request: Examples of pre in pages you use.
>
>
>
> *CAUTION:* This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
> the content is safe.
>
>
>
> While not an “academic,” I do have a master’s degree in English with an
> emphasis in poetry composition.   From my limited perspective, I think JF
> is right here. Preservation of formatting matters, when the format is
> integral to the meaning of the message.  The importance of displaying the
> line breaks as intended by the author of a poem is a reason to not
> automatically fail <pre> content under SC 1.4.10 - Reflow.
>
>
>
> Brooks
>
>
>
> *From:* John Foliot [mailto:john.foliot@deque.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 31, 2019 9:43 AM
> *To:* Wayne Dick <wayneedick@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Patrick H. Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk>; WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Crowd Source Request: Examples of pre in pages you use.
>
>
>
> ...which, I think we can say, is evidence that we can't simply say "Don't
> use <pre> because it = not accessible".
>
>
>
> I'm all for warnings, and SHOULD language (RFC 2119 style) going forward,
> but we have to recognize that sometimes, just sometimes, horizontal
> scrolling cannot be avoided (and... that's understandable and OK). Any
> emergent SC or Technique that speaks to this concern will require exception
> language for those edge and corner cases, is all.
>
>
>
> JF
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 9:37 AM Wayne Dick <wayneedick@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Jon,
>
> I did think of e e cummings. Or should I say:
>
> e      e
>
>                cummings.
>
>
>
> Wayne
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 12:33 AM Patrick H. Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> On 31/01/2019 01:25, Jonathan Avila wrote:
> > While I am not an expert on this either – I believe for a 3 line Haiku
> > it is the line breaks that matter and thus br would be sufficient.
> > However, there clearly are other poems such as Buffalo Bill’s by E E
> > Cummings where the spacing matter to the artistic prose.
> >
> > https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/47244/buffalo-bill-s
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.poetryfoundation.org_poems_47244_buffalo-2Dbill-2Ds&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=lVcN9Fq4HJpGjJE_qepMJnXlmJ_Tu_W7j-a39R-DYts&e=>
>
> Now this is one of those examples that I had in mind when talking about
> "futurist poetry" - where the overall typographic layout (beyond just
> line breaks, but including spacing and overall visual layout and
> arrangement of letters) carries meaning (in some cases resulting in
> something close to word/ASCII art)
>
> https://www.poetryfoundation.org/learn/glossary-terms/futurism
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.poetryfoundation.org_learn_glossary-2Dterms_futurism&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=as42kLl7cesWYXzveXH3thiLB7Rx2146DLPMZ_m76Bg&e=>
>
> P
>
> > I was hoping that we might be able to gain some insight from the BANA
> > braille rules but they aren’t as useful as I’d hope.
> >
> >
> http://www.brailleauthority.org/formats/2016manual-web/section13.html#_Toc462495173
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.brailleauthority.org_formats_2016manual-2Dweb_section13.html-23-5FToc462495173&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=vvL-YznOuIrkVsZKIXipi4V39oYpJesJEvW7dWPtUDE&e=>
> >
> >
> http://www.brailleauthority.org/formats/2016manual-web/section13.html#_Sample_4:_Poem
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.brailleauthority.org_formats_2016manual-2Dweb_section13.html-23-5FSample-5F4-3A-5FPoem&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=sd8upn3_HPv031cVtSQOZZmXpqPESi9o7si4l-QKv-0&e=>
> >
> > There are also single line and single word Haikus….
> >
> > Jonathan
> >
> > *From:* John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
> > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 30, 2019 7:55 PM
> > *To:* Patrick H. Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk>
> > *Cc:* WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> > *Subject:* Re: Crowd Source Request: Examples of pre in pages you use.
> >
> > *CAUTION:*This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> > click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
> > the content is safe.
> >
> > Hi Patrick,
> >
> > I'm not a Poly Lit Major, but I believe the formatting of both of those
> > examples is in fact important; certainly the Haiku, which is
> > specifically defined as 3 lines with the 5,7,5 syllable construct.
> > Wrapping (for example) the middle line would certainly break that
> > construct, and it would no longer be a Haiku...
> >
> > I also quoted the specific pattern of the Robert Service poem, where the
> > 4-line pattern is also an important literary construct; I can't comment
> > on *how* important, but I do know there is some importance attached. Any
> > academics out there who could weigh in?
> >
> > JF
> >
> > (Sent from my mobile, apologies for any spelling mistakes)
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 30, 2019, 6:07 PM Patrick H. Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk
> > <mailto:redux@splintered.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >     On 30/01/2019 23:42, John Foliot wrote:
> >      > Two examples when formatted text is important (if not critical):
> >      >
> >      > Haiku: (a traditional form of Japanese poetry. Haiku poems
> >     consist of 3
> >      > lines. The first and last lines of a Haiku have 5 syllables and
> the
> >      > middle line has 7 syllables. The lines rarely rhyme.)
> >      >
> >      >     The summer river:
> >      >     although there is a bridge, my horse
> >      >     goes through the water.
> >      >
> >      > Example of a Robert Service
> >      > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_W._Service
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_Robert-5FW.-5FService&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=z99MDALlMI-za1-5e8pvja0SHcruOrMPgZGS_WKZ_3A&e=>>
> poem
> >      > <https://mypoeticside.com/show-classic-poem-26688
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mypoeticside.com_show-2Dclassic-2Dpoem-2D26688&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=apvmKVu8DPdNVUdtdkRQElYrwZVOmgfJZOtUzmPRX80&e=>
> >: (This poem
> >     follows a
> >      > regular pattern of four-line stanzas composed of two rhyming
> >     couplets.)
> >      >
> >      >     On a Christmas Day we were mushing our way over the Dawson
> trail.
> >      >     Talk of your cold! through the parka's fold it stabbed like a
> >     driven
> >      >     nail.
> >      >     If our eyes we'd close, then the lashes froze till sometimes
> we
> >      >     couldn't see;
> >      >     It wasn't much fun, but the only one to whimper was Sam McGee.
> >      >
> >      >
> >      > In these examples, the formatting of the text also conveys the
> >      > Pentameter <https://literarydevices.net/pentameter/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__literarydevices.net_pentameter_&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=YZNcpmo4-1vtkTP24sP0cWKorVbmJIg3yiCofgECzns&e=>>of
> the
> >     rhymes/poems.
> >      > Conveying this literary device is wholly dependent on the
> >     formatting of
> >      > the text:
> >
> >     Is it the formatting here, or is it just the line breaks that are
> >     important? And is a haiku not semantically better marked up not with
> a
> >     <pre> element, but rather with something like a humble <p> with
> >     appropriate (and meaningful) <br> line breaks?
> >
> >     P
> >     --
> >     Patrick H. Lauke
> >
> >     www.splintered.co.uk
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.splintered.co.uk&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=PARzirkd9AL1flHnRVhDbcjzQBjImSiBnuEuuACwy1s&e=>
> <http://www.splintered.co.uk
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.splintered.co.uk&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=PARzirkd9AL1flHnRVhDbcjzQBjImSiBnuEuuACwy1s&e=>>
> |
> >     https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_patrickhlauke&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=sSlw3s4zSH62K-2efeGficg1yflaexyDt6NJri_pPHk&e=>
> >     http://flickr.com/photos/redux/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__flickr.com_photos_redux_&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=b5S6goNfEmiJkER6_8qD8bOHrQrpGfkOyJvAY7UqFBw&e=>
> | http://redux.deviantart.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__redux.deviantart.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=eS2XeOIjv8TZnAhn3brOoMHeca8ifLterTLoB9MGySw&e=>
> >     twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
> >
>
>
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
>
> www.splintered.co.uk
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.splintered.co.uk&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=PARzirkd9AL1flHnRVhDbcjzQBjImSiBnuEuuACwy1s&e=>
> | https://github.com/patrickhlauke
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_patrickhlauke&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=sSlw3s4zSH62K-2efeGficg1yflaexyDt6NJri_pPHk&e=>
> http://flickr.com/photos/redux/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__flickr.com_photos_redux_&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=b5S6goNfEmiJkER6_8qD8bOHrQrpGfkOyJvAY7UqFBw&e=>
> | http://redux.deviantart.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__redux.deviantart.com&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=eS2XeOIjv8TZnAhn3brOoMHeca8ifLterTLoB9MGySw&e=>
> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *​**John Foliot* | Principal Accessibility Strategist | W3C AC
> Representative
> Deque Systems - Accessibility for Good
> deque.com
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__deque.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=4iiwV5NThNWuwD28WrcjQnHeyXJER-BxwJ6nmI1OJ24&s=7ffDMrrofDQfIyxYafA-uds18n1cuVQxVsv4jkU_VXE&e=>
>
>
>


-- 
*​John Foliot* | Principal Accessibility Strategist | W3C AC Representative
Deque Systems - Accessibility for Good
deque.com
Received on Thursday, 31 January 2019 16:32:05 UTC

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