W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > w3c-wai-gl@w3.org > January to March 2018

Re: Is wikipedia really an example of a fail for 2.4.12?

From: Katie Haritos-Shea <ryladog@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 16:04:24 -0500
Message-ID: <CAEy-OxH5p8yJrxNxv3TBoW+Lhth1CB1XgBeHqK60vqLWB_AdfQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com
Cc: Michael Gower <michael.gower@ca.ibm.com>, "Abma, J.D. (Jake)" <Jake.Abma@ing.com>, Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com>, Joshue O Connor <josh@interaccess.ie>, WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
I just went through testing Netflix home page for proposed SC 2.4.12 using
the WCAG 2.1 Implementation Evaluation tool.

It failed for the Netfilx logo but not for the language dropdown field, as
the accessible name on combo boxes are the values of the select options, if
my understanding of HTML and Accessible Name and Description Computation
and API Mappings is correct. I am hoping that voice input AT handles this
correctly...

Am I wrong?


** katie **

*Katie Haritos-Shea*
*Principal ICT Accessibility Architect *

*WCAG/Section 508/ADA/AODA/QA/FinServ/FinTech/Privacy,* *IAAP CPACC+WAS = *
*CPWA* <http://www.accessibilityassociation.org/cpwacertificants>

*Cell: **703-371-5545 <703-371-5545>** |* *ryladog@gmail.com
<ryladog@gmail.com>* *| **Oakton, VA **|* *LinkedIn Profile
<http://www.linkedin.com/in/katieharitosshea/>*

People may forget exactly what it was that you said or did,
but people will never forget how you made them feel.......

Our scars remind us of where we have been........they do not have to
dictate where we are going.

On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 10:39 AM, <Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com> wrote:

> Hi Mike,
>
>
>
> I wasn’t thinking of failing the issue of the language select as I would
> fail a page component as part of a full page or sitewide audit.  I was
> considering SC 2.4.12 in the context in which Josh originally raised the
> issue, which was in relation to testing implementations in the wild looking
> for support of SC 2.4.12 - https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/
> wiki/WCAG_2.1_Implementations#2.4.12_Label_in_Name
>
>
>
> I guess a more precise way of stating what I meant is “The instance of the
> language select input on the Wikpedia home page fails to support SC 2.4.12
> as a successful implementation.”
>
>
>
> If I were auditing this page, I would mark the language select input as
> failures of 1.3.1 and 2.4.6.
>
>
>
> Brooks
>
>
>
> *From:* Michael Gower [mailto:michael.gower@ca.ibm.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 06, 2018 9:10 AM
> *To:* Newton, Brooks (Legal)
> *Cc:* Jake.Abma@ing.com; jon.avila@levelaccess.com; josh@interaccess.ie;
> w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
>
> *Subject:* RE: Is wikipedia really an example of a fail for 2.4.12?
>
>
>
> >  It doesn’t matter if there is a label or not.   This implementation
> fails SC 2.4.12.
>
> These two sentences didn't parse for me. 2.4.12 is all about the visible
> label text (and associating it properly programmatically). If there is no
> text presented visually (and I don't think I would agree EN is presented as
> a label for the search input) then you cannot fail 2.4.12.
>
> There are lots of problems with this input, but I don't think 2.4.12 is
> where I'd fail it.
>
> Michael Gower
> IBM Accessibility
> Research
>
> 1803 Douglas Street, Victoria, BC
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=1803+Douglas+Street,+Victoria,+BC++V8T+5C3&entry=gmail&source=g>
>  V8T 5C3
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=1803+Douglas+Street,+Victoria,+BC++V8T+5C3&entry=gmail&source=g>
> gowerm@ca.ibm.com
> voice: (250) 220-1146 * cel: (250) 661-0098 *  fax: (250) 220-8034
>
>
>
> From:        <Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com>
> To:        <jon.avila@levelaccess.com>, <Jake.Abma@ing.com>, <
> josh@interaccess.ie>, <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> Date:        2018-03-05 02:48 PM
> Subject:        RE: Is wikipedia really an example of a fail for 2.4.12?
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> Hey All,
>
>
>
> As I said before, my opinion is that there is no programmatic/accessible
> name provided for the language select input on the Wikipedia home page.  It
> doesn’t matter if there is a label or not.   This implementation fails SC
> 2.4.12.
>
>
>
> No matter how you analyze the label in this example, there will never be a
> label in the name, because the name doesn’t exist.
>
>
>
> Now, if “EN” were in fact the label and the name were in fact “English,”
> then I would say this implementation also fails, but for different
> reasons.  This SC was primarily introduced as a way of making sure that
> spoken “labels” would match up with programmatically-determinable names,
> right?  I don’t know about you, but when I pronounce “EN” it sounds
> phonetically like the word “in.”  And, when I pronounce the first syllable
> of the word “English,” it sounds phonetically like “ing.”  The two phonemes
> simply don’t match up.  This brings up the broader issue of how
> contractions, abbreviations and other shortened forms of words don’t always
> sound like the words they represent.  And, therefore, I think that
> abbreviations may not be reliably used to satisfy the label in name
> requirement. What are others’ thoughts on this?
>
>
>
> Brooks
>
>
>
> *From:*Jonathan Avila [mailto:jon.avila@levelaccess.com
> <jon.avila@levelaccess.com>]
> * Sent:* Monday, March 05, 2018 3:16 PM
> * To:* Abma, J.D. (Jake); Newton, Brooks (Legal); josh@interaccess.ie;
> w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
> * Subject:* RE: Is wikipedia really an example of a fail for 2.4.12?
>
>
>
> Wikipedia definitely has some accessibility issues on this page.
>
>
>
> From the stand point of SC 3.3.2  - G167
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.w3.org_TR_2016_NOTE-2DWCAG20-2DTECHS-2D20161007_G167&d=DwMGaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=_9rqR3xSCWQUlv9VpOcJwkP7H0XWQXmxeMmqQl6Fikc&m=kBjNQ2XwL1vLNEpeBJnvCoNRSjIM5nTboM2u4jNrJQ4&s=vs0D8wvninqpur1j2cMQKfCe0o6PLsM7NJ1d1ytpvfE&e=>can
> be used for the search field itself – but not the Language select.
>
>
>
> The search field doesn’t have a text label so I don’t think 2.4.12
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.w3.org_TR_WCAG21_-23label-2Din-2Dname&d=DwMGaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=_9rqR3xSCWQUlv9VpOcJwkP7H0XWQXmxeMmqQl6Fikc&m=kBjNQ2XwL1vLNEpeBJnvCoNRSjIM5nTboM2u4jNrJQ4&s=z-4GFbPOH0CvJZ0ytMgy1Qdd-TCrDxTfYNkJvpM_TiY&e=>
> applies.
>
>
>
> The language  select doesn’t have a programmatic name – so it fails SC
> 1.3.1/4.1.2.
>
>
>
> Regarding SC 2.4.12 – this is tricky because there the visual label – the
> value for the location is not sufficient to label the element and thus it
> fails SC 3.3.2 – but by virtue of failing both 3.3.2 and 1.3.1 it would
> also fail SC 2.4.12 unless we are saying no name is = to no label – in
> which case null = null which is true.
>
>
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
> *From:*Abma, J.D. (Jake) <Jake.Abma@ing.com>
> * Sent:* Monday, March 5, 2018 12:52 PM
> * To:* Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com; josh@interaccess.ie;
> w3c-wai-gl@w3.org; Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com>
> * Subject:* Re: Is wikipedia really an example of a fail for 2.4.12?
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Brooks/Josh,
>
> Funny thing here is they probably implemented it incorrectly as the 'for'
> and 'id' indeed don't match but the 'for' and the 'name' attribute on the
> input does.
>
> But if I remember well, referencing a comment from Jonathan not so long
> ago, it doesn't matter as the intention of the visible text in this case,
> the "EN" does serve as the label. The example mentioned by Jonathan was a
> search field with no label where the button with the text "search" serves
> the label purpose.
>
> So I'm wondering whether​ the "wrongly" implemented for/id combo (if not
> done on purpose) matters...
>
> @Jonathan ?
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:*Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com<Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com>
> * Sent:* Monday, March 5, 2018 5:16 PM
> * To:* josh@interaccess.ie; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
> * Subject:* RE: Is wikipedia really an example of a fail for 2.4.12?
>
>
>
> Hi Josh,
>
>
>
> From my perspective, this isn’t a relevant test for 2.4.12.  I’m no
> accessible name computation expert, but I don’t think the language select
> input on the Wikipedia home page has an accessible name.  In other words,
> there is no programmatically bound label text associated with the input.
>
>
>
> What is wrapped in <label> markup has not been programmatically bound to
> the associated select input.  Specifically the value of the forattribute
> in the labelattribute doesn’t match the value of the idattribute on the
> selectelement.
>
>
>
> So, the text value of the selected option in <select> is what’s announced
> by JAWS and NVDA as the name of the input.  The selected option, by
> default, is “English” when I browse to Wikipedia from my stateside
> location.   But the word “English” just a heuristic guess that some AT make
> at what might be a discernible label for this input is, right?  Anyone on
> the list, please tell me if I’m wrong here.
>
>
>
> So there is no accessible name to match up with the visible label.
>
>
>
> Brooks
>
>
>
> *From:*Joshue O Connor - InterAccess [mailto:josh@interaccess.ie
> <josh@interaccess.ie>]
> * Sent:* Friday, March 02, 2018 10:40 AM
> * To:* WCAG
> * Subject:* Is wikipedia really an example of a fail for 2.4.12?
>
>
>
> Question on a potential edge case - I'm not sure this a fail if the visual
> label is abbreviated but still comprehensible and following an established
> convention? [1]
>
>
>
> Accessible matches Visible. The visible and accessible name of a label
> match
>
> TEXT
> https://www.wikipedia.org
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.wikipedia.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=TPkFAcInejPKzkUFXeZM4xQ2HAxLjoPiAWeTwsdOrx4&s=qpilYEg2ztSqbzGGHsVLHzL5oaRBcJlzhZMNUom9F3Q&e=>=>
> Search field has language dropdown with text "EN" but has name "English"
> (or other language when selected)
>
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
>
> [1] https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/WCAG_2.1_Implementations#
> 2.4.12_Label_in_Name
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.w3.org_WAI_GL_wiki_WCAG-5F2.1-5FImplementations-232.4.12-5FLabel-5Fin-5FName&d=DwMGaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=_9rqR3xSCWQUlv9VpOcJwkP7H0XWQXmxeMmqQl6Fikc&m=kBjNQ2XwL1vLNEpeBJnvCoNRSjIM5nTboM2u4jNrJQ4&s=4xZ0ITfEWvWpDuxOK-6e3_FlsJ4CGziWNRysNa6O6wQ&e=>
>
> __
>
> Joshue O Connor
>
> Director / *InterAccess.ie*
>
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> ATTENTION:
> The information in this e-mail is confidential and only meant for the
> intended recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, don't use or
> disclose it in any way. Please let the sender know and delete the message
> immediately.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
Received on Tuesday, 6 March 2018 21:04:50 UTC

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thursday, 24 March 2022 21:08:22 UTC