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RE: Is wikipedia really an example of a fail for 2.4.12?

From: <Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 15:39:31 +0000
To: <michael.gower@ca.ibm.com>
CC: <Jake.Abma@ing.com>, <jon.avila@levelaccess.com>, <josh@interaccess.ie>, <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Message-ID: <0D83D4B3EDA73349BA3C4325C9071AD1867865@C111TZDHMBX75.ERF.thomson.com>
Hi Mike,

I wasn’t thinking of failing the issue of the language select as I would fail a page component as part of a full page or sitewide audit.  I was considering SC 2.4.12 in the context in which Josh originally raised the issue, which was in relation to testing implementations in the wild looking for support of SC 2.4.12 - https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/WCAG_2.1_Implementations#2.4.12_Label_in_Name

I guess a more precise way of stating what I meant is “The instance of the language select input on the Wikpedia home page fails to support SC 2.4.12 as a successful implementation.”

If I were auditing this page, I would mark the language select input as failures of 1.3.1 and 2.4.6.


From: Michael Gower [mailto:michael.gower@ca.ibm.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2018 9:10 AM
To: Newton, Brooks (Legal)
Cc: Jake.Abma@ing.com; jon.avila@levelaccess.com; josh@interaccess.ie; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Subject: RE: Is wikipedia really an example of a fail for 2.4.12?

>  It doesn’t matter if there is a label or not.   This implementation fails SC 2.4.12.

These two sentences didn't parse for me. 2.4.12 is all about the visible label text (and associating it properly programmatically). If there is no text presented visually (and I don't think I would agree EN is presented as a label for the search input) then you cannot fail 2.4.12.

There are lots of problems with this input, but I don't think 2.4.12 is where I'd fail it.

Michael Gower
IBM Accessibility

1803 Douglas Street, Victoria, BC  V8T 5C3
voice: (250) 220-1146 * cel: (250) 661-0098 *  fax: (250) 220-8034

From:        <Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com<mailto:Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com>>
To:        <jon.avila@levelaccess.com<mailto:jon.avila@levelaccess.com>>, <Jake.Abma@ing.com<mailto:Jake.Abma@ing.com>>, <josh@interaccess.ie<mailto:josh@interaccess.ie>>, <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
Date:        2018-03-05 02:48 PM
Subject:        RE: Is wikipedia really an example of a fail for 2.4.12?

Hey All,

As I said before, my opinion is that there is no programmatic/accessible name provided for the language select input on the Wikipedia home page.  It doesn’t matter if there is a label or not.   This implementation fails SC 2.4.12.

No matter how you analyze the label in this example, there will never be a label in the name, because the name doesn’t exist.

Now, if “EN” were in fact the label and the name were in fact “English,” then I would say this implementation also fails, but for different reasons.  This SC was primarily introduced as a way of making sure that spoken “labels” would match up with programmatically-determinable names, right?  I don’t know about you, but when I pronounce “EN” it sounds phonetically like the word “in.”  And, when I pronounce the first syllable of the word “English,” it sounds phonetically like “ing.”  The two phonemes simply don’t match up.  This brings up the broader issue of how contractions, abbreviations and other shortened forms of words don’t always sound like the words they represent.  And, therefore, I think that abbreviations may not be reliably used to satisfy the label in name requirement. What are others’ thoughts on this?


From:Jonathan Avila [mailto:jon.avila@levelaccess.com]
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2018 3:16 PM
To: Abma, J.D. (Jake); Newton, Brooks (Legal); josh@interaccess.ie<mailto:josh@interaccess.ie>; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Subject: RE: Is wikipedia really an example of a fail for 2.4.12?

Wikipedia definitely has some accessibility issues on this page.

From the stand point of SC 3.3.2  - G167<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.w3.org_TR_2016_NOTE-2DWCAG20-2DTECHS-2D20161007_G167&d=DwMGaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=_9rqR3xSCWQUlv9VpOcJwkP7H0XWQXmxeMmqQl6Fikc&m=kBjNQ2XwL1vLNEpeBJnvCoNRSjIM5nTboM2u4jNrJQ4&s=vs0D8wvninqpur1j2cMQKfCe0o6PLsM7NJ1d1ytpvfE&e=>can be used for the search field itself – but not the Language select.

The search field doesn’t have a text label so I don’t think 2.4.12<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.w3.org_TR_WCAG21_-23label-2Din-2Dname&d=DwMGaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=_9rqR3xSCWQUlv9VpOcJwkP7H0XWQXmxeMmqQl6Fikc&m=kBjNQ2XwL1vLNEpeBJnvCoNRSjIM5nTboM2u4jNrJQ4&s=z-4GFbPOH0CvJZ0ytMgy1Qdd-TCrDxTfYNkJvpM_TiY&e=>applies.

The language  select doesn’t have a programmatic name – so it fails SC 1.3.1/4.1.2.

Regarding SC 2.4.12 – this is tricky because there the visual label – the value for the location is not sufficient to label the element and thus it fails SC 3.3.2 – but by virtue of failing both 3.3.2 and 1.3.1 it would also fail SC 2.4.12 unless we are saying no name is = to no label – in which case null = null which is true.


From:Abma, J.D. (Jake) <Jake.Abma@ing.com<mailto:Jake.Abma@ing.com>>
Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 12:52 PM
To: Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com<mailto:Brooks.Newton@thomsonreuters.com>; josh@interaccess.ie<mailto:josh@interaccess.ie>; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>; Jonathan Avila <jon.avila@levelaccess.com<mailto:jon.avila@levelaccess.com>>
Subject: Re: Is wikipedia really an example of a fail for 2.4.12?

Hi Brooks/Josh,

Funny thing here is they probably implemented it incorrectly as the 'for' and 'id' indeed don't match but the 'for' and the 'name' attribute on the input does.

But if I remember well, referencing a comment from Jonathan not so long ago, it doesn't matter as the intention of the visible text in this case, the "EN" does serve as the label. The example mentioned by Jonathan was a search field with no label where the button with the text "search" serves the label purpose.

So I'm wondering whether​ the "wrongly" implemented for/id combo (if not done on purpose) matters...

@Jonathan ?


Sent: Monday, March 5, 2018 5:16 PM
To: josh@interaccess.ie<mailto:josh@interaccess.ie>; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org<mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Subject: RE: Is wikipedia really an example of a fail for 2.4.12?

Hi Josh,

From my perspective, this isn’t a relevant test for 2.4.12.  I’m no accessible name computation expert, but I don’t think the language select input on the Wikipedia home page has an accessible name.  In other words, there is no programmatically bound label text associated with the input.

What is wrapped in <label> markup has not been programmatically bound to the associated select input.  Specifically the value of the forattribute in the labelattribute doesn’t match the value of the idattribute on the selectelement.

So, the text value of the selected option in <select> is what’s announced by JAWS and NVDA as the name of the input.  The selected option, by default, is “English” when I browse to Wikipedia from my stateside location.   But the word “English” just a heuristic guess that some AT make at what might be a discernible label for this input is, right?  Anyone on the list, please tell me if I’m wrong here.

So there is no accessible name to match up with the visible label.


From:Joshue O Connor - InterAccess [mailto:josh@interaccess.ie]
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2018 10:40 AM
Subject: Is wikipedia really an example of a fail for 2.4.12?

Question on a potential edge case - I'm not sure this a fail if the visual label is abbreviated but still comprehensible and following an established convention? [1]

Accessible matches Visible. The visible and accessible name of a label match

https://www.wikipedia.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.wikipedia.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=4ZIZThykDLcoWk-GVjSLmy8-1Cr1I4FWIvbLFebwKgY&r=W3VUihr49D2x8upR4FtjMIsy0FSGEnqb4ghTiQJMtRw&m=TPkFAcInejPKzkUFXeZM4xQ2HAxLjoPiAWeTwsdOrx4&s=qpilYEg2ztSqbzGGHsVLHzL5oaRBcJlzhZMNUom9F3Q&e=>=> Search field has language dropdown with text "EN" but has name "English" (or other language when selected)


[1] https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/WCAG_2.1_Implementations#2.4.12_Label_in_Name<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.w3.org_WAI_GL_wiki_WCAG-5F2.1-5FImplementations-232.4.12-5FLabel-5Fin-5FName&d=DwMGaQ&c=jf_iaSHvJObTbx-siA1ZOg&r=_9rqR3xSCWQUlv9VpOcJwkP7H0XWQXmxeMmqQl6Fikc&m=kBjNQ2XwL1vLNEpeBJnvCoNRSjIM5nTboM2u4jNrJQ4&s=4xZ0ITfEWvWpDuxOK-6e3_FlsJ4CGziWNRysNa6O6wQ&e=>


Joshue O Connor

Director / InterAccess.ie

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Received on Tuesday, 6 March 2018 15:41:55 UTC

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