Re: CFC - Proposed definition for 'Programatic Notification'

Here's the CFC for Change of Content
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2017AprJun/1010.html

Here's the survey results for it.
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/SCreview_May_17/results#xq10


Cheers,
David MacDonald



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On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 4:04 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
wrote:

> > Aria-live may solve that – but that’s not what the definition allows
> for.  The definition would allow for a speech API announcement only to pass.
>
> I don't understand. The entire purpose of the definition is to allow
> aria-live to meet it.
> ​That's the intent of it.​
>
> " ...using methods that are supported by user agents, including assistive
> technologies..."
>
> This is borrowed from programmatically determined
> ​, which is primarily about screen readers.​
>
> ​If we want to completely unpack this SC and try to rewrite for all types
> of other notifications, then I'd be interested to see that.​ But his SC as
> written has broad support everywhere I go.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902 <(613)%20235-4902>
>
> LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
> twitter.com/davidmacd
>
> GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald>
>
> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/>
>
>
>
> *  Adapting the web to all users*
> *            Including those with disabilities*
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> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
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> On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 3:45 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> The link in the CFC is going the the wrong SC. It is for Change of
>> Content not Purpose of controls.
>>
>> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#purpose-of-controls
>>
>> It should be
>> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#change-of-content
>>
>>
>> I think we have to throw this CFC thread out and reissue it. It has
>> caused terrible confusion.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> David MacDonald
>>
>>
>>
>> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>>
>> Tel:  613.235.4902 <(613)%20235-4902>
>>
>> LinkedIn
>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>>
>> twitter.com/davidmacd
>>
>> GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald>
>>
>> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/>
>>
>>
>>
>> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>> *            Including those with disabilities*
>>
>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
>> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 3:25 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I seems that running this CFC definition when it is disassociated from
>>> the SC to which it applies has caused confusion.
>>>
>>>
>>> >  @jonathanThe definition seems to allow for using the speech API in a
>>> browser to speak something.  This type of “announcement” may work for some
>>> users but doesn’t seem like a solution that works for different types of
>>> users with disabilities.  A programmatic notification should be something
>>> that could be converted into different formats – speech, braille, pop-up,
>>> vibration, etc.  If I am misunderstanding then I’d be happy to change my
>>> vote.
>>>
>>> This SC is all about helping those screen reader users. It has been that
>>> from the beginning. It's a narrow and important  requirement
>>> ​ and it was approved on that basis​
>>> .
>>> ​The main way of meeting it is using aria-live. I'm kind of surprised
>>> we're talking about widening the SC like this at this late date.
>>>
>>> Widening
>>> ​ it ​to other types of notifications would be a real change to it and
>>> how would that be worded?
>>>
>>> > @Steve
>>> What is needed is a programmatic association given to the new content.
>>>
>>> t
>>> ​hat's in the first bullet.
>>>
>>>    - There is a programmatically determined relationship between the
>>>    new content and the control that triggers it;
>>>
>>> ​
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> David MacDonald
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>>>
>>> Tel:  613.235.4902 <(613)%20235-4902>
>>>
>>> LinkedIn
>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>>>
>>> twitter.com/davidmacd
>>>
>>> GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald>
>>>
>>> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>>> *            Including those with disabilities*
>>>
>>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
>>> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Oct 3, 2017 at 3:02 PM, Repsher, Stephen J <
>>> stephen.j.repsher@boeing.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> -1
>>>>
>>>> I agree with Jonathon, and would add that his point is enforced by
>>>> saying “announced”, which is biased towards certain users.  It also uses
>>>> “notification” in the definition which is a practice we should avoid.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ultimately, I think the real solution here is to reword the SC to not
>>>> use such a term.  “Programmatic notification” implies (and the definition
>>>> doesn’t help) that content beyond the “change of content” is needed, but
>>>> that is not the case.  What is needed is a programmatic association given
>>>> to the new content.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I also find the shopping cart example confusing because it seems like
>>>> that is exempt by being the result of a user action.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I’m sorry I missed reviewing this in detail on the survey.  This all
>>>> needs further discussion in my opinion.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Jonathan Avila [mailto:jon.avila@levelaccess.com]
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 03, 2017 1:25 PM
>>>> *To:* WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
>>>> *Subject:* RE: CFC - Proposed definition for 'Programatic Notification'
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -1.  The definition seems to allow for using the speech API in a
>>>> browser to speak something.  This type of “announcement” may work for some
>>>> users but doesn’t seem like a solution that works for different types of
>>>> users with disabilities.  A programmatic notification should be something
>>>> that could be converted into different formats – speech, braille, pop-up,
>>>> vibration, etc.  If I am misunderstanding then I’d be happy to change my
>>>> vote.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jonathan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Joshue O Connor [mailto:josh@interaccess.ie
>>>> <josh@interaccess.ie>]
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 3, 2017 1:06 PM
>>>> *To:* WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
>>>> *Subject:* CFC - Proposed definition for 'Programatic Notification'
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Call For Consensus — ends Friday October 6th at 1:00pm Boston time.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The Working Group has a new proposed definition of "Programmatic
>>>> Notification" as found in the Change of Content SC.
>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG21/#purpose-of-controls
>>>>
>>>> The DFN text is:
>>>>
>>>> <dfn>
>>>> Programmatic notification.
>>>>
>>>> Notification set by the content which can be announced to the user
>>>> without virtual or actual focus, using methods that are supported by user
>>>> agents, including assistive technologies.
>>>>
>>>> Example: a screen reader announces to a user that their shopping cart
>>>> has been updated after they select an item for purchase.
>>>> </dfn>
>>>>
>>>> And can be viewed here: https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/
>>>> commit/b5c68e17f82feb0cdbbafc273f245b136a7445c4
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This was discussed on todays call: https://www.w3.org/2017/10/03-
>>>> ag-minutes.html#item09
>>>>
>>>> This definition was previously missing from WCAG 2.1 and the proposal
>>>> is to add it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you have concerns about this proposed consensus position that have
>>>> not been discussed already and feel that those concerns result in you “not
>>>> being able to live with” this decision, please let the group know before
>>>> the CfC deadline.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Joshue O Connor
>>>> Director *| InterAccess.ie *
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>