Re: Moving Issues 62, 63, 71 to the conformance section

hmmm...

What do you think WCAG 2.0 requires?

Cheers,
David MacDonald



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On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 1:54 PM, Kathy Wahlbin <
kathy@interactiveaccessibility.com> wrote:

> I agree with John.  We should not say that they have to have it working on
> one mobile technology.
>
>
>
> This is also not an SC.  We are proposing adding clarification language to
> the Understanding Requirement 2" just before the Notes at the end of the
> section. https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/conformance.html#uc-
> conformance-requirements-head to clarify that different viewport sizes
> also need to conform to WCAG SC.
>
>
>
> Kathy
>
>
>
> *From:* John Foliot [mailto:john.foliot@deque.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, July 14, 2017 1:47 PM
> *To:* David MacDonald <david@can-adapt.com>
> *Cc:* White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org>; WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
>
> *Subject:* Re: Moving Issues 62, 63, 71 to the conformance section
>
>
>
> Hi David,
>
>
>
> > If they can demonstrate the site working on one mobile technology stack
> that should be sufficient.
>
>
>
> I'm sorry, I have to *strongly *disagree with that. The W3C has a
> long-standing policy of two independent implementations, and I would expect
> we maintain that minimum requirement going forward.
>
>
>
> I cannot support a SC that is targeted towards addressing an issue (or
> issues) with a specific piece of hardware or software (or platform), and if
> we cannot demonstrate that the requirement can be achieved on more than one
> platform, then we cannot make it a SC Requirement today (hard as that may
> be to accept). As somebody once noted
> <http://www.davidmacd.com/blog/what-are-WCAG-success-criteria.html#p7>:
>
> Success Criteria are technology neutral
>
>
>
> JF
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 11:57 AM, David MacDonald <david@can-adapt.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Try as I might, I've not gotten VoiceOver to work on my Samsung Galaxy
> yet, and I don't think I ever will...
>
>
>
> Yes it is shorthand, however, I don't think we can require developers to
> support every environment. Especially buggy environments ...  (such as
> Talkback/Android)
>
>
>
> If they can demonstrate the site working on one mobile technology stack
> that should be sufficient.
>
>
> Cheers,
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Mobile:  613.806.9005 <(613)%20806-9005>
>
> LinkedIn
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
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>
> GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald>
>
> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/>
>
>
>
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>
> *            Including those with disabilities*
>
>
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>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 12:37 PM, John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
> wrote:
>
> As an aside...
>
>
>
> > The original intention of the SC is to require VoiceOver compatibility
> for mobile views
>
>
>
> Try as I might, I've not gotten VoiceOver to work on my Samsung Galaxy
> yet, and I don't think I ever will...
>
>
>
> (I realize that this was more "shorthand" than anything else, but we also
> need to be mindful that we are looking for functional outcomes, and not SC
> that address software shortcomings with specific tools - which I know David
> knows. 😀)
>
>
>
> JF
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 8:04 PM, David MacDonald <david@can-adapt.com>
> wrote:
>
> Hi Jason
>
>
>
> The original intention of the SC is to require VoiceOver compatibility for
> mobile views, especially inaccessible hamburger menus. Personally, I'd like
> to simply see a qualification to WCAG 2.0 or 2.1 Conformance that a page
> includes changes caused by breakpoints.
>
>
>
> Your wording requires ALL AT to be tested and we found that to be a
> limitless scope of every AT available in the Apple store. We could narrow
> the scope by limiting the AT the way we did in the SC proposals to
> "platform assistive technology that remaps touch gestures". This is really
> the crux of the problem as we saw it on the task force.
>
>
>
> ***
>
> If (1) the content includes features that adapt the presentation or
> functionality for specific hardware or software environments (e.g., as
> rendered on devices with different screen sizes), and (2) a different
> platform assistive technology that remaps touch gestures is used on those
> environments then the ways in which technologies are relied upon to satisfy
> the success criteria are only accessibility-supported if they are
> compatible with user agents and assistive technologies in each of the
> environments for which enhancements are provided.
>
> ***
>
>
>
> I know its a mouthful but if its accurate we can do a plain language pass
> later.
>
>
>
>
> Cheers,
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Mobile:  613.806.9005 <(613)%20806-9005>
>
> LinkedIn
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>
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>
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>
> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/>
>
>
>
> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>
> *            Including those with disabilities*
>
>
>
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>
> On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 4:46 PM, White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org> wrote:
>
> This is interesting. I don’t think screen size is the right concept to use
> for purposes of of the clarification that we need. Also, this proposal
> doesn’t actually clarify the application of the “accessibility-supported”
> requirement by asserting the relevant set of user agents and assistive
> technologies that need to be compatible with the ways of using technologies
> relied on to meet the success criteria. I appreciate its simplicity,
> however.
>
>
>
> *From:* David MacDonald [mailto:david@can-adapt.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, July 13, 2017 4:39 PM
> *To:* White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org>
> *Cc:* WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Moving Issues 62, 63, 71 to the conformance section
>
>
>
> Here's another option which might be easier:
>
>
>
> ***
>
>
>
> "If components change form based on screen size, they remain
> programmatically determinable and keyboard operable."
>
>
>
> ***
>
>
>
> It would be placed after the last paragraph in the section "Understanding
> Requirement 2" just before the Notes at the end of the section.
> https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/conformance.html#uc-
> conformance-requirements-head
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>
>
> Cheers,
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Mobile:  613.806.9005 <(613)%20806-9005>
>
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>
> *            Including those with disabilities*
>
>
>
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>
> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 12:50 PM, White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org> wrote:
>
> Thanks, David – see further comments below.
>
>
>
> *From:* David MacDonald [mailto:david@can-adapt.com]
>
> I like your second condition, adding an "AND" for different AT in those
> environments.
>
>
>
>  Regarding the first condition, Gregg expressed concern regarding using
> broad strokes for the customized view. He suggested we limit it to "size".
> He was nervous that there might be customized delivery of content such
> information spoken in a car etc, that by its very nature could not meet the
> conformance language and inhibit adoption of the standard.
>
> *[Jason] I would like to see good examples of this that would meet both of
> my conditions and which would raise difficulties.*
>
>
>
> So if I was to take your proposal and adjust it to size, it would look
> something like this.
>
>
>
> If (1) the content includes features that adapt its presentation or
> functionality based on screen sizes in specific hardware or software
> environments, and (2) different user agents or assistive technologies are
> in use in each of these respective environments, then the ways in which
> technologies are relied upon to satisfy the success criteria are only
> accessibility-supported if they are compatible with user agents and
> assistive technologies in each of the environments for which adaptations
> are provided.
>
>
>
> However, arguing against myself, your proposal  does limit the scope to
> environments with different AT. If there is no AT for that environment,
> then maybe your language is OK.
>
> *[Jason] Yes, I’m in favor of mentioning screen size, if at all, only as
> an example. Both of the conditions do need to be met for the proposal to
> apply, and it only clarifies (at most, expands) the nature of the
> compatibility guarantee.*
>
>
>
>
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> --
>
> John Foliot
>
> Principal Accessibility Strategist
>
> Deque Systems Inc.
>
> john.foliot@deque.com
>
>
>
> Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> John Foliot
>
> Principal Accessibility Strategist
>
> Deque Systems Inc.
>
> john.foliot@deque.com
>
>
>
> Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion
>