- From: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
- Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 21:42:49 -0500
- To: John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
- Cc: Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>, Wayne Dick <wayneedick@gmail.com>, WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CAAdDpDb3j1GY+1+6ewcQ1WweJL0c3qeeeMb9J=vSXv=DdFqYBA@mail.gmail.com>
If a particular mobile browser can reflow, (which I haven't seen), then what is stopping it from passing the SC without the exception? Cheers, David MacDonald *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.* Tel: 613.235.4902 LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100> twitter.com/davidmacd GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/> * Adapting the web to all users* * Including those with disabilities* If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 8:50 PM, John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com> wrote: > Hi David, > > > There is an exception for mobile devices. > (1) The user-agent provides no means of re-flowing content. > > Except, I've seen content re-flow on mobile devices, as long as the page > is not locked down, so I don't think that would pass muster (IMHO). > > JF > > > On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 4:49 PM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca> > wrote: > >> >you cannot have it all (i.e. at a fixed width of a device - say a cell >> phone - if you enlarge your text to be very large (I'm seeing 400% being >> tossed around a fair bit as a new normal), then even 25 characters will >> very likely introduce horizontal scrolling, >> >> There is an exception for mobile devices. >> (1) The user-agent provides no means of re-flowing content. >> >> > if you enlarge your text to be very large (I'm seeing 400% being tossed >> around >> >> The SC is to be tested without enlarging the text. >> >> " >> ... >> a mechanism is available to adjust the line length >> ... >> *without increasing the font in the user agent,*... >> >> I think for the first draft we introduce the SCs separately " (1) line >> length, (2) One column, (3) text zoom >> >> I think this one stands on its own ok and meets the 8 requirements s for >> acceptance ... I share your concerns about whether it's 25 or some larger >> threshold, but besides that I think it holds together and is ready for >> public scrutiny. I'm 25 hours into this SC, and hitting my limit of >> bandwidth, unless someone else wants to take it over. >> >> Cheers, >> David MacDonald >> >> >> >> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.* >> >> Tel: 613.235.4902 <(613)%20235-4902> >> >> LinkedIn >> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100> >> >> twitter.com/davidmacd >> >> GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald> >> >> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/> >> >> >> >> * Adapting the web to all users* >> * Including those with disabilities* >> >> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy >> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html> >> >> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 5:17 PM, John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com> >> wrote: >> >>> Hi Laura, >>> >>> Yes, and thanks for reminding me of that, although I am unsure whether >>> Wayne is/was using Gmail to respond to this thread. Still, it is a useful >>> metric to keep in mind. >>> >>> However, if I am to understand the proposed SC requirement here, I >>> should be able to somehow shorten those line-lengths to nothing greater >>> than 25 characters, and how to do that consistently across multiple >>> web-sites / web-pages is unclear as this time. >>> >>> What does the page author have to do (or not do) to ensure that users >>> who have this requirement can meet success? I believe I understand the need >>> that is driving this proposed SC, but have not seen any technique or >>> example of how this could be achieved. >>> >>> I also continue to struggle with the intersection between line length, >>> font-face and size, fixed view-port widths, and the issues around >>> horizontal scrolling, as it seems you cannot have it all (i.e. at a fixed >>> width of a device - say a cell phone - if you enlarge your text to be very >>> large (I'm seeing 400% being tossed around a fair bit as a new normal), >>> then even 25 characters will very likely introduce horizontal scrolling, >>> due to the sheer size of each character.) >>> >>> JF >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 2:29 PM, Laura Carlson < >>> laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi John, >>>> >>>> You wrote to Wayne: >>>> >>>> > I am looking forward to seeing your examples, >>>> > while at the same time observing that your >>>> > email's longest line is 72 characters in >>>> > length. >>>> >>>> Gmail's plain text mode foces hard breaks so no line is longer than 78 >>>> characters. >>>> >>>> Check: >>>> https://mathiasbynens.be/notes/gmail-plain-text >>>> >>>> Kindest Regards, >>>> Laura >>>> >>>> On 1/11/17, John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com> wrote: >>>> > Hi Wayne, >>>> > >>>> > Thank you for weighing in here, as yes, there is a struggle to >>>> completely >>>> > understand what you are asking for in the Success Criteria. I am >>>> looking >>>> > forward to seeing your examples, while at the same time observing >>>> that your >>>> > email's longest line is 72 characters in length. >>>> > >>>> > You wrote: "The point here is the user can choose" - which gets a 100% >>>> > thumbs up from me, but what does that mean for the author (as opposed >>>> to >>>> > the software/hardware tools being used by the user)? >>>> > >>>> > And when you speak of 25 characters as being "a little big" what do >>>> you >>>> > mean by that (please)? 25 characters at 16 pt. is not very big; 25 >>>> > characters at 32pt. is big, and 25 characters at 32pt. X 400% >>>> magnification >>>> > is enormous, so at a minimum I suspect we need to be also stating a >>>> unit >>>> > measurement at a fixed magnification point for "testing" and >>>> compliance >>>> > purposes. Do you have any thoughts there? >>>> > >>>> > One thing I want to address however is your claim "...because today >>>> > hyphenation is not well supported." What is this assertion based >>>> upon? The >>>> > research I've done shows that this is not the case, that currently >>>> support >>>> > for CSS hyphenation, while not at 100%, is actually quite good today >>>> > (source: http://caniuse.com/#search=hyphens) I hate to sound like a >>>> broken >>>> > record, but I've posted this source now 3 times - can you or somebody >>>> else >>>> > either refute it or accept it as "true" today? If true, can we >>>> dispense >>>> > with the "hyphenation is not well supported" claims on this list? >>>> Thanks! >>>> > >>>> > JF >>>> > >>>> > On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Wayne Dick <wayneedick@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> Hi All, >>>> >> >>>> >> 50 characters is too much. 30 is too much. 25 is a little big but >>>> most >>>> >> people with low vision can live with it. I know that you have a rough >>>> >> time setting up examples right now, but they are not hard to do with >>>> >> practice. I'll get to that tomorrow. >>>> >> >>>> >> The point here is the user can choose. Normal users probably won't >>>> >> choose to shorten text because authors construct columns of text for >>>> >> normal users. Users with dyslexia will probably choose moderate lines >>>> >> 40-55. People who need enlargement and people who have medical field >>>> >> loss will choose 25. >>>> >> >>>> >> From the usability point of view character count is the item to >>>> >> measure because it is based on lexical data (letters, digits, >>>> >> punctuation, etc.). Word wrapping is a lexical operation and so is >>>> >> reading. You don't write a 1-meter essay. You write 1000 words. if >>>> you >>>> >> want to measure readable of language you must use linguistic >>>> measures. >>>> >> EM like measures might do. >>>> >> >>>> >> The key her is user choice. Suppose a German has peripheral field >>>> >> loss, a common enough occurrence. The overwhelming number of German >>>> >> words are less than 15 characters. See >>>> >> http://www.news-by-design.com/infographic/language-length/ . >>>> >> 25-letter words occur, but not many. So you have a choice: You can >>>> >> short lines and set your user style sheet to break words (because >>>> >> today hyphenation is not well supported). Or, you can choose wider >>>> >> lines. Your choice. >>>> >> >>>> >> it is not exact but 15em usually gives about 25 characters. >>>> >> >>>> >> To say authors aren't used to short columns is just silly. In four >>>> >> column format 3 of four columns will be close to 25 characters or >>>> >> less. >>>> >> >>>> >> This is not as hard as it seems. Also if you have normal vision your >>>> >> conventional knowledge will not do you much good. >>>> >> >>>> >> i suggest finding a cardboard tube, like a toilet paper tube. Cut it >>>> >> down to where you can only fit 25 characters inside and then try to >>>> >> read one of these email string through the cardboard tube. >>>> >> >>>> >> if you have peripheral field loss or use a screen magnifier, lens or >>>> >> CCTV that's what it's like. This problem can be solved, but not by >>>> >> making lines too long. >>>> >> >>>> >> More to come. >>>> >> >>>> >> Wayne >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 10:21 AM, David MacDonald < >>>> david100@sympatico.ca> >>>> >> wrote: >>>> >> > CSS hyphenation (when it is supported) offers the author control, >>>> which >>>> >> is >>>> >> > fine... >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Cheers, >>>> >> > David MacDonald >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > CanAdapt Solutions Inc. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Tel: 613.235.4902 >>>> >> > >>>> >> > LinkedIn >>>> >> > >>>> >> > twitter.com/davidmacd >>>> >> > >>>> >> > GitHub >>>> >> > >>>> >> > www.Can-Adapt.com >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Adapting the web to all users >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Including those with disabilities >>>> >> > >>>> >> > If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy >>>> policy >>>> >> > >>>> >> > On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 12:28 PM, John Foliot < >>>> john.foliot@deque.com> >>>> >> wrote: >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> > most (all) bowsers don't add hyphens >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> Sorry David, I have to disagree: most browsers today support the >>>> CSS >>>> >> >> hyphens attribute (https://www.w3.org/TR/css-tex >>>> t/#hyphens-property), >>>> >> >> confirmed by CanIUse here: http://caniuse.com/#search=hyphens >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> See also: >>>> >> >> http://blog.fontdeck.com/post/9037028497/hyphens >>>> >> >> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/hyphens >>>> >> >> https://css-tricks.com/almanac/properties/h/hyphenate/ >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> JF >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 11:08 AM, David MacDonald < >>>> >> david100@sympatico.ca> >>>> >> >> wrote: >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> > I would propose we look to Root EMS instead for at least part >>>> of >>>> >> >>> > this >>>> >> >>> > proposal, and that we also include a magnification point (200%? >>>> >> 400%?) as >>>> >> >>> > also part of the requirement: >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> I think the latest proposal addresses the magnification issue by >>>> >> >>> requiring that the SC be met without zooming text. The downside >>>> of >>>> >> REMs are >>>> >> >>> that it is harder to understand, it is a specific technology, >>>> and it >>>> >> is a >>>> >> >>> relative measurement. Patrick, Jon A., what are your thoughts? >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> I would also like Makoto and Swetank to respond to the >>>> hyphenation >>>> >> >>> situation that most (all) bowsers don't add hyphens, and that >>>> CSS can >>>> >> be use >>>> >> >>> to override any hyphenation. >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> Cheers, >>>> >> >>> David MacDonald >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> CanAdapt Solutions Inc. >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> Tel: 613.235.4902 >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> LinkedIn >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> twitter.com/davidmacd >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> GitHub >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> www.Can-Adapt.com >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> Adapting the web to all users >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> Including those with disabilities >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy >>>> >> >>> policy >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 11:24 AM, John Foliot < >>>> john.foliot@deque.com> >>>> >> >>> wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >>>> >> >>>> David wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >>>> >> >>>> > We have an established precedent in 1.4.8 of using characters >>>> to >>>> >> >>>> > measure line length. >>>> >> >>>> >>>> >> >>>> Hi David, >>>> >> >>>> >>>> >> >>>> While we may have precedent there, SC 1.4.8 is a AAA Success >>>> >> >>>> Criteria, >>>> >> >>>> and I am hard-pressed personally to recall a site that meets >>>> (and >>>> >> reports >>>> >> >>>> compliance to) that SC consistently. As we've seen, "character" >>>> is a >>>> >> very >>>> >> >>>> imprecise unit of measurement. >>>> >> >>>> >>>> >> >>>> I think we need to step back a bit; what is the real goal we are >>>> >> trying >>>> >> >>>> to achieve here? I don't think it has anything to do with actual >>>> >> character >>>> >> >>>> count (per-se), but rather that we need developers to not break >>>> text >>>> >> re-flow >>>> >> >>>> (perhaps to a minimum of 25 REMs - Root EMs). Level-set: LVTF, >>>> is >>>> >> this the >>>> >> >>>> real "goal" here? >>>> >> >>>> >>>> >> >>>> However, given fixed view-port sizes and magnification there >>>> will >>>> >> >>>> necessitate a trade-off, or else I could envision developers >>>> will >>>> >> create one >>>> >> >>>> line in their document at font-size:40px - perhaps an h1 - and >>>> then >>>> >> use that >>>> >> >>>> as the 'measuring point': 25 X 40px = 1000px, which, as a >>>> "baseline, >>>> >> would >>>> >> >>>> then "allow" paragraph text at 16px. to far exceed the 25 >>>> character >>>> >> count >>>> >> >>>> being proposed (1000 / 16 = 62.5 "characters") It is for this >>>> reason >>>> >> that I >>>> >> >>>> would propose we look to Root EMS instead for at least part of >>>> this >>>> >> >>>> proposal, and that we also include a magnification point (200%? >>>> >> 400%?) as >>>> >> >>>> also part of the requirement: >>>> >> >>>> >>>> >> >>>> <draft> For the visual presentation of all text, text should >>>> >> >>>> naturally >>>> >> >>>> re-flow to a minimum of 25 REMs at 200% magnification without >>>> >> horizontal >>>> >> >>>> scrolling, with the following exceptions. </draft> >>>> >> >>>> >>>> >> >>>> ...or something along those lines. By moving away from actual >>>> >> characters >>>> >> >>>> (and their "imperfect" unit of measurement), we will likely >>>> address >>>> >> most >>>> >> >>>> concerns around internationalization, and with a more precise >>>> unit >>>> >> >>>> of >>>> >> >>>> measurement, we will be able to better test (mechanically) >>>> >> >>>> compliance >>>> >> to the >>>> >> >>>> new SC. (I'd also look to have this be an AA requirement, as >>>> opposed >>>> >> to an >>>> >> >>>> A, but that is a different discussion...) >>>> >> >>>> >>>> >> >>>> Thoughts? >>>> >> >>>> >>>> >> >>>> JF >>>> >> >>>> >>>> >> >>>> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 8:59 AM, John Foliot < >>>> john.foliot@deque.com> >>>> >> >>>> wrote: >>>> >> >>>>> >>>> >> >>>>> David wrote: >>>> >> >>>>> >>>> >> >>>>> > No browser that I know would do this: >>>> >> >>>>> > >>>> >> >>>>> > "Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their >>>> >> >>>>> > establish- >>>> >> >>>>> > ment party for now and forever" >>>> >> >>>>> >>>> >> >>>>> Erm... https://www.w3.org/TR/css-text/#hyphens-property >>>> >> >>>>> and http://caniuse.com/#search=hyphens >>>> >> >>>>> (which suggests support in most browsers with the exception of >>>> >> >>>>> Android's native browser) >>>> >> >>>>> >>>> >> >>>>> JF >>>> >> >>>>> >>>> >> >>>>> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 8:52 AM, David MacDonald >>>> >> >>>>> <david100@sympatico.ca> wrote: >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> Perhaps I'm missing something. For example say there is the >>>> line >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> "Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their >>>> >> >>>>>> establishment party for now and forever" >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> And lets say that at the end of the word "their" we have a >>>> count >>>> >> >>>>>> of >>>> >> 45 >>>> >> >>>>>> characters (I didn't count). The browser window is narrowed >>>> to 50 >>>> >> >>>>>> characters. Then the line will wrap after "their" and it would >>>> >> >>>>>> pass. >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> "Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of >>>> their (45 >>>> >> >>>>>> characters) >>>> >> >>>>>> establishment party for now and forever ..." >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> This would pass because there are 50 or less characters on >>>> that >>>> >> line. >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> No browser that I know would do this: >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> "Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their >>>> >> >>>>>> establish- >>>> >> >>>>>> ment party for now and forever" >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> In other words.... most lines will be less than 50 characters >>>> if >>>> >> >>>>>> 50 >>>> >> is >>>> >> >>>>>> the threshold we decide on. >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> We have an established precedent in 1.4.8 of using characters >>>> to >>>> >> >>>>>> measure line length. I think in a dot release we should stick >>>> with >>>> >> that, >>>> >> >>>>>> unless I'm missing something. >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>> >> >>>>>> David MacDonald >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> CanAdapt Solutions Inc. >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> Tel: 613.235.4902 <(613)%20235-4902> >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> LinkedIn >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> twitter.com/davidmacd >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> GitHub >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> www.Can-Adapt.com >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> Adapting the web to all users >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> Including those with disabilities >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our >>>> privacy >>>> >> >>>>>> policy >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 9:21 AM, Patrick H. Lauke >>>> >> >>>>>> <redux@splintered.co.uk> wrote: >>>> >> >>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>> On 11/01/2017 14:12, David MacDonald wrote: >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> Hi Shwetank >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> Can you help us understand how hyphenation works in those >>>> >> languages? >>>> >> >>>>>>>> In >>>> >> >>>>>>>> English and French, (the languages I speak), the web the >>>> page >>>> >> >>>>>>>> just >>>> >> >>>>>>>> wraps >>>> >> >>>>>>>> the entire word if it doesn't fit. So there is not generally >>>> >> >>>>>>>> hyphenation >>>> >> >>>>>>>> for web writing. >>>> >> >>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>> Regardless of language, hyphenation will be up to the >>>> browser to >>>> >> >>>>>>> do >>>> >> >>>>>>> (support isn't fantastic / cross-browser just yet), or would >>>> >> require >>>> >> >>>>>>> additional JS solutions that forcibly break and hyphenate >>>> words >>>> >> (which would >>>> >> >>>>>>> likely lead to issues where AT would start to read word >>>> fragments >>>> >> rather >>>> >> >>>>>>> than full words). So there are potential technical >>>> limitations to >>>> >> overcome >>>> >> >>>>>>> here as well. >>>> >> >>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>> P >>>> >> >>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>> >> >>>>>>>> David MacDonald >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.* >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> Tel: 613.235.4902 >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> LinkedIn >>>> >> >>>>>>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> twitter.com/davidmacd <http://twitter.com/davidmacd> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> / Adapting the web to *all* users/ >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> / Including those with disabilities/ >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our >>>> privacy >>>> >> >>>>>>>> policy >>>> >> >>>>>>>> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 8:12 AM, Shwetank Dixit >>>> >> >>>>>>>> <shwetank@barrierbreak.com <mailto:shwetank@barrierbreak. >>>> com>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> FWIW, I agree with John that character length is not a >>>> good >>>> >> >>>>>>>> criteria >>>> >> >>>>>>>> at all for this purpose, especially from the viewpoint >>>> of >>>> >> >>>>>>>> non-english languages. I believe the research and >>>> guidelines >>>> >> >>>>>>>> mentioned in this discussion have not included languages >>>> >> >>>>>>>> from >>>> >> >>>>>>>> scripts apart from the Latin script (please correct me >>>> if >>>> >> >>>>>>>> I’m >>>> >> >>>>>>>> wrong) >>>> >> >>>>>>>> like Devnagari, Gurkumikhi, or any from the CJK ones for >>>> >> >>>>>>>> example. >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> I am especially concerned about the possibility of >>>> >> significantly >>>> >> >>>>>>>> increased ‘hyphenation’ that this could result in (which >>>> >> >>>>>>>> John >>>> >> >>>>>>>> also >>>> >> >>>>>>>> mentioned) causing bigger problems from a cognitive >>>> >> perspective. >>>> >> >>>>>>>> — >>>> >> >>>>>>>> Shwetank >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, Jan 11, 2017 at 4:32 PM, Michael Pluke >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> <Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> <mailto:Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com>> wrote: >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> I can see that the choice of characters as the unit of >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> measurement >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> can result in very different end-results that you get >>>> >> depending >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> on >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> the chosen font-size and font-face. This may make this >>>> unit >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> less >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> useful from an LV perspective. ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> However I still think that, from a cognitive >>>> perspective, >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> it >>>> >> is >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> relevant and important to set a maximum line length in >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> characters. >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Long lines with many words/characters are demonstrably >>>> hard >>>> >> to >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> read for everyone but, most particularly for people >>>> with >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> dyslexia. The 80 characters in SC 1.4.8 >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/visual- >>>> >> audio-contrast-visual-presentation.html> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> will cause significant difficulties for many people >>>> with >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> dyslexia.____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> EA has quoted several research-based sources that offer >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> realistic >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> line-length proposals. From reading the extract from >>>> >> 'Dyslexia >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> in >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> the Digital Age' that EA linked-to ( >>>> >> http://tinyurl.com/jra7hk3) >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> I >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> don’t think that it gives very strong evidence that 55 >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> characters >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> is the only choice. I’m a great fan of the realistic >>>> >> proposals >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> that Luz Rello makes (based on her research >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> (http://www.luzrello.com/Publ >>>> ications_files/uais2015.pdf >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> <http://www.luzrello.com/Publ >>>> ications_files/uais2015.pdf>)) >>>> >> so >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> I >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> have confidence for specifying line lengths in the >>>> 44-66 >>>> >> range >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> (although it was non-dyslexic people who benefitted >>>> most >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> from >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> 44 >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> character columns). The British Dyslexia Style Guide >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> http://www.bdadyslexia.org.uk/common/ckeditor/filemanager/ >>>> >> userfiles/About_Us/policies/Dyslexia_Style_Guide.pdf >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> <http://www.bdadyslexia.org.uk/common/ckeditor/ >>>> >> filemanager/userfiles/About_Us/policies/Dyslexia_Style_Guide.pdf> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> recommends that “Lines should not be too long: 60 to70 >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> characters.”____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> *Conclusion*: Based on all of the above I think >>>> that:____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> * To benefit LV users we should avoid having SCs that >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> give >>>> >> a >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> line length based on the number of characters;____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> * To benefit people with dyslexia (and also the >>>> general >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> population) the 1.4.8-based 80 character maximum in >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> proposal #51 <https://github.com/w3c/wcag21 >>>> /issues/51> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> should >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> be reduced to a figure no greater than 70 >>>> characters >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> (and >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> probably no less than 60).____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Mike____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> *From:*John Foliot [mailto:john.foliot@deque.com >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> <mailto:john.foliot@deque.com>] >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> *Sent:* 10 January 2017 23:56 >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> *To:* David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> <mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> *Cc:* WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto: >>>> w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: Length of line____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> TL;DR - Using 'character' as a unit of measurement is >>>> >> extremely >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> problematic, and I do not support it's use here. ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> **************____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Some thoughts after today's call.____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> I personally have significant concerns over >>>> prescribing a >>>> >> fixed >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> number of characters, especially such a low number, as >>>> a >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> unit >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> of >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> measurement. ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> *Internationalization:*____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> When we factor in both Internationalization and >>>> languages >>>> >> other >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> than English, we will quickly arrive at a point where >>>> the >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> number >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> 25 is smaller than numerous words in different >>>> languages >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_words >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_words>), which >>>> will >>>> >> then >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> require word hyphenization (most probably supplied by >>>> the >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> content >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> author, until such time as AI can do that job >>>> seamlessly). >>>> >> This >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> then suggests to me that we will start to see 'forced' >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> line-breaks >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> again (using the presentational <br>), which could >>>> have a >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> significant impact on screen flow in RWD (Responsive) >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> layouts >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> (i.e. the cure being worse the the symptom).____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> *Font-size and font-face choices:*____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Equally, as mentioned on the call, another factor in >>>> >> measuring >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> this, related to horizontal scrolling, is font-size. >>>> For >>>> >> those >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> of >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> you using HTML-rich mail clients, and using a 25 >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> character-count >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> example taken from >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> http://www.litscape.com/words/length/25_letters/25_letter_ >>>> >> words.html >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> <http://www.litscape.com/words/length/25_letters/25_ >>>> >> letter_words.html>:____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> electroencephalographical____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> (Gmail's____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> '____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> S____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> mall' sizing)____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> electroencephalographical (Gmail's____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> 'Normal' sizing)____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> electroencephalographical (Gmail's____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> 'Large' sizing)____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> electroencephalographical (Gmail's____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> 'Huge' sizing)____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Q: How do we test for "success" here? Even the final >>>> line >>>> >> above >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> (Gmail's "Huge" font-size) could introduce horizontal >>>> >> scrolling >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> at >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> some level of magnification on some devices, yet at 25 >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> characters >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> "meets" the current wording of the proposed SC. ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Additionally, different font-faces will have different >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> font-width >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> characteristics, depending on the font-face chosen. For >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> example:____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> electroencephalographical (Gmail 'sans-serif', >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> size >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> 'normal')____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> electroencephalographical (Gmail 'Verdana', size >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> 'normal') ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> electroencephalographical (Gmail 'Wide', size >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> 'normal')____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ...once again, depending on the font-face choice we >>>> have 3 >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> different line-lengths, and so I question the overall >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> choice >>>> >> of >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> "character" as a unit of measurement here.____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> *How to 'Succeed'/Author push-back:*____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> The current proposed language for this SC reads:____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> For the visual presentation of all text, a >>>> mechanism is >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> available such that line length is user >>>> adjustable, to >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> 25 >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> characters, with no two-dimensional scrolling >>>> required, >>>> >> and >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> with the following exceptions.____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> However, it is unclear what a page author can or >>>> should do >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> to >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> meet >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> this requirement____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> , as it very much feels like a User-Agent requirement >>>> as >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> much >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> as >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> anything else. For SC 1.4.8, one technique is ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> G204 >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> <https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/20 >>>> 16/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20160105/ >>>> >> G204>: >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> /Not interfering with the user agent's reflow of text >>>> as >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> the >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> viewing window is narrowed/____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> /, /which seems to me to at least address the larger >>>> issue >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> (avoid horizontal scrolling) without prescribing a >>>> specific >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> line-length.____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Finally, the current Success Criteria that requires an >>>> 80 >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> character line-length (____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> SC 1.4.8 >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/visual- >>>> >> audio-contrast-visual-presentation.html>) >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> is a AAA Success Criteria requirement, and yet this new >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> proposed >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> SC is at level A, at roughly 1/3 the 80-char limit. >>>> ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Sadly (but not totally unreasonably) ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> I suspect that we will get significant push-back at >>>> level >>>> >> A____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> .____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> JF____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 3:31 PM, David MacDonald >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> <david100@sympatico.ca <mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> wrote:____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> I'm the manager of Issue #57 line length. >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/57 >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> <https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/57> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> I was asked to explain why 25 characters was >>>> chosen as >>>> >> the >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> threshold. I deferred to the LVTF____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> since I did not write that requirement____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> . One point that was mentioned was that 25 >>>> characters >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> is >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> about >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> the width of most news article columns. >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> I did a survey of several top news sites on the >>>> web and >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> measured the length of characters when text size is >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> 100% >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> (no zoom) >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> -CNN 74____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> characters without counting spaces 87 with spaces. >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> could >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> narrow to 35 (w/ spaces) in Responsive >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> -NBC 61 no spaces 73 with spaces, could narrow to >>>> 39 >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> (w/ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> spaces) >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> -ABC NEWS 81 no spaces 92 Spaces, could narrow to >>>> 43 in >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> responsive >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> -FoxNews 67 no space 79 spaces could narrow to 45 >>>> in >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> responsive >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> -Le Droit french 74 no space, 86 with spaces, no >>>> >> responsive >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> -Google News 73 No Spaces 87 with spaces could >>>> narrow >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> to >>>> >> 44 >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> in >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> responsive >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> - Huff post French 67 no spaces 79 with spaces no >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> responsive____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> N____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> one of these sites passed the new SC proposal of 25 >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> characters. They all went to horizontal scroll when >>>> >> window >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> was >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> narrowed less than those ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> minimum character ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> widths shown above.____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Do we____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> want to make the minimum a little wider, say 45 >>>> or 50 >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> characters. >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> For reference, the following is about 25 >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> characters:____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> "This test assesses basic"____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> David MacDonald____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Tel: 613.235.4902 <(613)%20235-4902> >>>> <tel:(613)%20235-4902>____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> LinkedIn >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> twitter.com/davidmacd >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> <http://twitter.com/davidmacd>____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald>____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/>____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> / Adapting the web to *all* users/____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> / Including those with disabilities/____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> If you are not the intended recipient, please >>>> review >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> our privacy policy >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> -- ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> John Foliot____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Principal Accessibility Strategist____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Deque Systems Inc.____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> john.foliot@deque.com <mailto:john.foliot@deque.com> >>>> ____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> inclusion____ >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>> -- >>>> >> >>>>>>> Patrick H. Lauke >>>> >> >>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>>> www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke >>>> >> >>>>>>> http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | >>>> http://redux.deviantart.com >>>> >> >>>>>>> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke >>>> >> >>>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>>> >>>> >> >>>>> >>>> >> >>>>> >>>> >> >>>>> >>>> >> >>>>> -- >>>> >> >>>>> John Foliot >>>> >> >>>>> Principal Accessibility Strategist >>>> >> >>>>> Deque Systems Inc. >>>> >> >>>>> john.foliot@deque.com >>>> >> >>>>> >>>> >> >>>>> Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion >>>> >> >>>> >>>> >> >>>> >>>> >> >>>> >>>> >> >>>> >>>> >> >>>> -- >>>> >> >>>> John Foliot >>>> >> >>>> Principal Accessibility Strategist >>>> >> >>>> Deque Systems Inc. >>>> >> >>>> john.foliot@deque.com >>>> >> >>>> >>>> >> >>>> Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >>> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> -- >>>> >> >> John Foliot >>>> >> >> Principal Accessibility Strategist >>>> >> >> Deque Systems Inc. >>>> >> >> john.foliot@deque.com >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > -- >>>> > John Foliot >>>> > Principal Accessibility Strategist >>>> > Deque Systems Inc. >>>> > john.foliot@deque.com >>>> > >>>> > Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Laura L. Carlson >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> John Foliot >>> Principal Accessibility Strategist >>> Deque Systems Inc. >>> john.foliot@deque.com >>> >>> Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion >>> >> >> > > > -- > John Foliot > Principal Accessibility Strategist > Deque Systems Inc. > john.foliot@deque.com > > Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion >
Received on Thursday, 12 January 2017 02:43:28 UTC