- From: John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
- Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 16:17:21 -0600
- To: Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>
- Cc: Wayne Dick <wayneedick@gmail.com>, WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CAKdCpxy8TC2Xg0NZMCfVQi0LNbbrx7YZcvP45gYZXCJHA6qpbg@mail.gmail.com>
Hi Laura, Yes, and thanks for reminding me of that, although I am unsure whether Wayne is/was using Gmail to respond to this thread. Still, it is a useful metric to keep in mind. However, if I am to understand the proposed SC requirement here, I should be able to somehow shorten those line-lengths to nothing greater than 25 characters, and how to do that consistently across multiple web-sites / web-pages is unclear as this time. What does the page author have to do (or not do) to ensure that users who have this requirement can meet success? I believe I understand the need that is driving this proposed SC, but have not seen any technique or example of how this could be achieved. I also continue to struggle with the intersection between line length, font-face and size, fixed view-port widths, and the issues around horizontal scrolling, as it seems you cannot have it all (i.e. at a fixed width of a device - say a cell phone - if you enlarge your text to be very large (I'm seeing 400% being tossed around a fair bit as a new normal), then even 25 characters will very likely introduce horizontal scrolling, due to the sheer size of each character.) JF On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 2:29 PM, Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi John, > > You wrote to Wayne: > > > I am looking forward to seeing your examples, > > while at the same time observing that your > > email's longest line is 72 characters in > > length. > > Gmail's plain text mode foces hard breaks so no line is longer than 78 > characters. > > Check: > https://mathiasbynens.be/notes/gmail-plain-text > > Kindest Regards, > Laura > > On 1/11/17, John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com> wrote: > > Hi Wayne, > > > > Thank you for weighing in here, as yes, there is a struggle to completely > > understand what you are asking for in the Success Criteria. I am looking > > forward to seeing your examples, while at the same time observing that > your > > email's longest line is 72 characters in length. > > > > You wrote: "The point here is the user can choose" - which gets a 100% > > thumbs up from me, but what does that mean for the author (as opposed to > > the software/hardware tools being used by the user)? > > > > And when you speak of 25 characters as being "a little big" what do you > > mean by that (please)? 25 characters at 16 pt. is not very big; 25 > > characters at 32pt. is big, and 25 characters at 32pt. X 400% > magnification > > is enormous, so at a minimum I suspect we need to be also stating a unit > > measurement at a fixed magnification point for "testing" and compliance > > purposes. Do you have any thoughts there? > > > > One thing I want to address however is your claim "...because today > > hyphenation is not well supported." What is this assertion based upon? > The > > research I've done shows that this is not the case, that currently > support > > for CSS hyphenation, while not at 100%, is actually quite good today > > (source: http://caniuse.com/#search=hyphens) I hate to sound like a > broken > > record, but I've posted this source now 3 times - can you or somebody > else > > either refute it or accept it as "true" today? If true, can we dispense > > with the "hyphenation is not well supported" claims on this list? Thanks! > > > > JF > > > > On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Wayne Dick <wayneedick@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > >> Hi All, > >> > >> 50 characters is too much. 30 is too much. 25 is a little big but most > >> people with low vision can live with it. I know that you have a rough > >> time setting up examples right now, but they are not hard to do with > >> practice. I'll get to that tomorrow. > >> > >> The point here is the user can choose. Normal users probably won't > >> choose to shorten text because authors construct columns of text for > >> normal users. Users with dyslexia will probably choose moderate lines > >> 40-55. People who need enlargement and people who have medical field > >> loss will choose 25. > >> > >> From the usability point of view character count is the item to > >> measure because it is based on lexical data (letters, digits, > >> punctuation, etc.). Word wrapping is a lexical operation and so is > >> reading. You don't write a 1-meter essay. You write 1000 words. if you > >> want to measure readable of language you must use linguistic measures. > >> EM like measures might do. > >> > >> The key her is user choice. Suppose a German has peripheral field > >> loss, a common enough occurrence. The overwhelming number of German > >> words are less than 15 characters. See > >> http://www.news-by-design.com/infographic/language-length/ . > >> 25-letter words occur, but not many. So you have a choice: You can > >> short lines and set your user style sheet to break words (because > >> today hyphenation is not well supported). Or, you can choose wider > >> lines. Your choice. > >> > >> it is not exact but 15em usually gives about 25 characters. > >> > >> To say authors aren't used to short columns is just silly. In four > >> column format 3 of four columns will be close to 25 characters or > >> less. > >> > >> This is not as hard as it seems. Also if you have normal vision your > >> conventional knowledge will not do you much good. > >> > >> i suggest finding a cardboard tube, like a toilet paper tube. Cut it > >> down to where you can only fit 25 characters inside and then try to > >> read one of these email string through the cardboard tube. > >> > >> if you have peripheral field loss or use a screen magnifier, lens or > >> CCTV that's what it's like. This problem can be solved, but not by > >> making lines too long. > >> > >> More to come. > >> > >> Wayne > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 10:21 AM, David MacDonald < > david100@sympatico.ca> > >> wrote: > >> > CSS hyphenation (when it is supported) offers the author control, > which > >> is > >> > fine... > >> > > >> > Cheers, > >> > David MacDonald > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > CanAdapt Solutions Inc. > >> > > >> > Tel: 613.235.4902 > >> > > >> > LinkedIn > >> > > >> > twitter.com/davidmacd > >> > > >> > GitHub > >> > > >> > www.Can-Adapt.com > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Adapting the web to all users > >> > > >> > Including those with disabilities > >> > > >> > If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy > policy > >> > > >> > On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 12:28 PM, John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com> > >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > most (all) bowsers don't add hyphens > >> >> > >> >> Sorry David, I have to disagree: most browsers today support the CSS > >> >> hyphens attribute (https://www.w3.org/TR/css-text/#hyphens-property > ), > >> >> confirmed by CanIUse here: http://caniuse.com/#search=hyphens > >> >> > >> >> See also: > >> >> http://blog.fontdeck.com/post/9037028497/hyphens > >> >> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/hyphens > >> >> https://css-tricks.com/almanac/properties/h/hyphenate/ > >> >> > >> >> JF > >> >> > >> >> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 11:08 AM, David MacDonald < > >> david100@sympatico.ca> > >> >> wrote: > >> >>> > >> >>> > I would propose we look to Root EMS instead for at least part of > >> >>> > this > >> >>> > proposal, and that we also include a magnification point (200%? > >> 400%?) as > >> >>> > also part of the requirement: > >> >>> > >> >>> I think the latest proposal addresses the magnification issue by > >> >>> requiring that the SC be met without zooming text. The downside of > >> REMs are > >> >>> that it is harder to understand, it is a specific technology, and it > >> is a > >> >>> relative measurement. Patrick, Jon A., what are your thoughts? > >> >>> > >> >>> I would also like Makoto and Swetank to respond to the hyphenation > >> >>> situation that most (all) bowsers don't add hyphens, and that CSS > can > >> be use > >> >>> to override any hyphenation. > >> >>> > >> >>> Cheers, > >> >>> David MacDonald > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> CanAdapt Solutions Inc. > >> >>> > >> >>> Tel: 613.235.4902 > >> >>> > >> >>> LinkedIn > >> >>> > >> >>> twitter.com/davidmacd > >> >>> > >> >>> GitHub > >> >>> > >> >>> www.Can-Adapt.com > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> Adapting the web to all users > >> >>> > >> >>> Including those with disabilities > >> >>> > >> >>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy > >> >>> policy > >> >>> > >> >>> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 11:24 AM, John Foliot < > john.foliot@deque.com> > >> >>> wrote: > >> >>>> > >> >>>> David wrote: > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > We have an established precedent in 1.4.8 of using characters to > >> >>>> > measure line length. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Hi David, > >> >>>> > >> >>>> While we may have precedent there, SC 1.4.8 is a AAA Success > >> >>>> Criteria, > >> >>>> and I am hard-pressed personally to recall a site that meets (and > >> reports > >> >>>> compliance to) that SC consistently. As we've seen, "character" is > a > >> very > >> >>>> imprecise unit of measurement. > >> >>>> > >> >>>> I think we need to step back a bit; what is the real goal we are > >> trying > >> >>>> to achieve here? I don't think it has anything to do with actual > >> character > >> >>>> count (per-se), but rather that we need developers to not break > text > >> re-flow > >> >>>> (perhaps to a minimum of 25 REMs - Root EMs). Level-set: LVTF, is > >> this the > >> >>>> real "goal" here? > >> >>>> > >> >>>> However, given fixed view-port sizes and magnification there will > >> >>>> necessitate a trade-off, or else I could envision developers will > >> create one > >> >>>> line in their document at font-size:40px - perhaps an h1 - and then > >> use that > >> >>>> as the 'measuring point': 25 X 40px = 1000px, which, as a > "baseline, > >> would > >> >>>> then "allow" paragraph text at 16px. to far exceed the 25 character > >> count > >> >>>> being proposed (1000 / 16 = 62.5 "characters") It is for this > reason > >> that I > >> >>>> would propose we look to Root EMS instead for at least part of this > >> >>>> proposal, and that we also include a magnification point (200%? > >> 400%?) as > >> >>>> also part of the requirement: > >> >>>> > >> >>>> <draft> For the visual presentation of all text, text should > >> >>>> naturally > >> >>>> re-flow to a minimum of 25 REMs at 200% magnification without > >> horizontal > >> >>>> scrolling, with the following exceptions. </draft> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> ...or something along those lines. By moving away from actual > >> characters > >> >>>> (and their "imperfect" unit of measurement), we will likely address > >> most > >> >>>> concerns around internationalization, and with a more precise unit > >> >>>> of > >> >>>> measurement, we will be able to better test (mechanically) > >> >>>> compliance > >> to the > >> >>>> new SC. (I'd also look to have this be an AA requirement, as > opposed > >> to an > >> >>>> A, but that is a different discussion...) > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Thoughts? > >> >>>> > >> >>>> JF > >> >>>> > >> >>>> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 8:59 AM, John Foliot < > john.foliot@deque.com> > >> >>>> wrote: > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> David wrote: > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > No browser that I know would do this: > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> > "Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their > >> >>>>> > establish- > >> >>>>> > ment party for now and forever" > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> Erm... https://www.w3.org/TR/css-text/#hyphens-property > >> >>>>> and http://caniuse.com/#search=hyphens > >> >>>>> (which suggests support in most browsers with the exception of > >> >>>>> Android's native browser) > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> JF > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 8:52 AM, David MacDonald > >> >>>>> <david100@sympatico.ca> wrote: > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Perhaps I'm missing something. For example say there is the line > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> "Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their > >> >>>>>> establishment party for now and forever" > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> And lets say that at the end of the word "their" we have a count > >> >>>>>> of > >> 45 > >> >>>>>> characters (I didn't count). The browser window is narrowed to 50 > >> >>>>>> characters. Then the line will wrap after "their" and it would > >> >>>>>> pass. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> "Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their > (45 > >> >>>>>> characters) > >> >>>>>> establishment party for now and forever ..." > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> This would pass because there are 50 or less characters on that > >> line. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> No browser that I know would do this: > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> "Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their > >> >>>>>> establish- > >> >>>>>> ment party for now and forever" > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> In other words.... most lines will be less than 50 characters if > >> >>>>>> 50 > >> is > >> >>>>>> the threshold we decide on. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> We have an established precedent in 1.4.8 of using characters to > >> >>>>>> measure line length. I think in a dot release we should stick > with > >> that, > >> >>>>>> unless I'm missing something. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Cheers, > >> >>>>>> David MacDonald > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> CanAdapt Solutions Inc. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Tel: 613.235.4902 > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> LinkedIn > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> twitter.com/davidmacd > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> GitHub > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> www.Can-Adapt.com > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Adapting the web to all users > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> Including those with disabilities > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy > >> >>>>>> policy > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 9:21 AM, Patrick H. Lauke > >> >>>>>> <redux@splintered.co.uk> wrote: > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> On 11/01/2017 14:12, David MacDonald wrote: > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> Hi Shwetank > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> Can you help us understand how hyphenation works in those > >> languages? > >> >>>>>>>> In > >> >>>>>>>> English and French, (the languages I speak), the web the page > >> >>>>>>>> just > >> >>>>>>>> wraps > >> >>>>>>>> the entire word if it doesn't fit. So there is not generally > >> >>>>>>>> hyphenation > >> >>>>>>>> for web writing. > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> Regardless of language, hyphenation will be up to the browser to > >> >>>>>>> do > >> >>>>>>> (support isn't fantastic / cross-browser just yet), or would > >> require > >> >>>>>>> additional JS solutions that forcibly break and hyphenate words > >> (which would > >> >>>>>>> likely lead to issues where AT would start to read word > fragments > >> rather > >> >>>>>>> than full words). So there are potential technical limitations > to > >> overcome > >> >>>>>>> here as well. > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> P > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> Cheers, > >> >>>>>>>> David MacDonald > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.* > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> Tel: 613.235.4902 > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> LinkedIn > >> >>>>>>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> twitter.com/davidmacd <http://twitter.com/davidmacd> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> / Adapting the web to *all* users/ > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> / Including those with disabilities/ > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our > privacy > >> >>>>>>>> policy > >> >>>>>>>> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 8:12 AM, Shwetank Dixit > >> >>>>>>>> <shwetank@barrierbreak.com <mailto:shwetank@barrierbreak.com>> > >> >>>>>>>> wrote: > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> FWIW, I agree with John that character length is not a good > >> >>>>>>>> criteria > >> >>>>>>>> at all for this purpose, especially from the viewpoint of > >> >>>>>>>> non-english languages. I believe the research and > guidelines > >> >>>>>>>> mentioned in this discussion have not included languages > >> >>>>>>>> from > >> >>>>>>>> scripts apart from the Latin script (please correct me if > >> >>>>>>>> I’m > >> >>>>>>>> wrong) > >> >>>>>>>> like Devnagari, Gurkumikhi, or any from the CJK ones for > >> >>>>>>>> example. > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> I am especially concerned about the possibility of > >> significantly > >> >>>>>>>> increased ‘hyphenation’ that this could result in (which > >> >>>>>>>> John > >> >>>>>>>> also > >> >>>>>>>> mentioned) causing bigger problems from a cognitive > >> perspective. > >> >>>>>>>> — > >> >>>>>>>> Shwetank > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, Jan 11, 2017 at 4:32 PM, Michael Pluke > >> >>>>>>>>> <Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com > >> >>>>>>>>> <mailto:Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com>> wrote: > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> I can see that the choice of characters as the unit of > >> >>>>>>>>> measurement > >> >>>>>>>>> can result in very different end-results that you get > >> depending > >> >>>>>>>>> on > >> >>>>>>>>> the chosen font-size and font-face. This may make this > unit > >> >>>>>>>>> less > >> >>>>>>>>> useful from an LV perspective. ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> However I still think that, from a cognitive perspective, > >> >>>>>>>>> it > >> is > >> >>>>>>>>> relevant and important to set a maximum line length in > >> >>>>>>>>> characters. > >> >>>>>>>>> Long lines with many words/characters are demonstrably > hard > >> to > >> >>>>>>>>> read for everyone but, most particularly for people with > >> >>>>>>>>> dyslexia. The 80 characters in SC 1.4.8 > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/visual- > >> audio-contrast-visual-presentation.html> > >> >>>>>>>>> will cause significant difficulties for many people with > >> >>>>>>>>> dyslexia.____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> EA has quoted several research-based sources that offer > >> >>>>>>>>> realistic > >> >>>>>>>>> line-length proposals. From reading the extract from > >> 'Dyslexia > >> >>>>>>>>> in > >> >>>>>>>>> the Digital Age' that EA linked-to ( > >> http://tinyurl.com/jra7hk3) > >> >>>>>>>>> I > >> >>>>>>>>> don’t think that it gives very strong evidence that 55 > >> >>>>>>>>> characters > >> >>>>>>>>> is the only choice. I’m a great fan of the realistic > >> proposals > >> >>>>>>>>> that Luz Rello makes (based on her research > >> >>>>>>>>> (http://www.luzrello.com/Publications_files/uais2015.pdf > >> >>>>>>>>> <http://www.luzrello.com/Publications_files/uais2015.pdf > >)) > >> so > >> >>>>>>>>> I > >> >>>>>>>>> have confidence for specifying line lengths in the 44-66 > >> range > >> >>>>>>>>> (although it was non-dyslexic people who benefitted most > >> >>>>>>>>> from > >> >>>>>>>>> 44 > >> >>>>>>>>> character columns). The British Dyslexia Style Guide > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> http://www.bdadyslexia.org.uk/common/ckeditor/filemanager/ > >> userfiles/About_Us/policies/Dyslexia_Style_Guide.pdf > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> <http://www.bdadyslexia.org.uk/common/ckeditor/ > >> filemanager/userfiles/About_Us/policies/Dyslexia_Style_Guide.pdf> > >> >>>>>>>>> recommends that “Lines should not be too long: 60 to70 > >> >>>>>>>>> characters.”____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> *Conclusion*: Based on all of the above I think that:____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> * To benefit LV users we should avoid having SCs that > >> >>>>>>>>> give > >> a > >> >>>>>>>>> line length based on the number of characters;____ > >> >>>>>>>>> * To benefit people with dyslexia (and also the general > >> >>>>>>>>> population) the 1.4.8-based 80 character maximum in > >> >>>>>>>>> proposal #51 <https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/51 > > > >> >>>>>>>>> should > >> >>>>>>>>> be reduced to a figure no greater than 70 characters > >> >>>>>>>>> (and > >> >>>>>>>>> probably no less than 60).____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> Mike____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> *From:*John Foliot [mailto:john.foliot@deque.com > >> >>>>>>>>> <mailto:john.foliot@deque.com>] > >> >>>>>>>>> *Sent:* 10 January 2017 23:56 > >> >>>>>>>>> *To:* David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca > >> >>>>>>>>> <mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>> > >> >>>>>>>>> *Cc:* WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>> > >> >>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: Length of line____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> TL;DR - Using 'character' as a unit of measurement is > >> extremely > >> >>>>>>>>> problematic, and I do not support it's use here. ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> **************____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> Some thoughts after today's call.____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> I personally have significant concerns over prescribing a > >> fixed > >> >>>>>>>>> number of characters, especially such a low number, as a > >> >>>>>>>>> unit > >> >>>>>>>>> of > >> >>>>>>>>> measurement. ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> *Internationalization:*____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> When we factor in both Internationalization and languages > >> other > >> >>>>>>>>> than English, we will quickly arrive at a point where the > >> >>>>>>>>> number > >> >>>>>>>>> 25 is smaller than numerous words in different languages > >> >>>>>>>>> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_words > >> >>>>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_words>), which > will > >> then > >> >>>>>>>>> require word hyphenization (most probably supplied by the > >> >>>>>>>>> content > >> >>>>>>>>> author, until such time as AI can do that job seamlessly). > >> This > >> >>>>>>>>> then suggests to me that we will start to see 'forced' > >> >>>>>>>>> line-breaks > >> >>>>>>>>> again (using the presentational <br>), which could have a > >> >>>>>>>>> significant impact on screen flow in RWD (Responsive) > >> >>>>>>>>> layouts > >> >>>>>>>>> (i.e. the cure being worse the the symptom).____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> *Font-size and font-face choices:*____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> Equally, as mentioned on the call, another factor in > >> measuring > >> >>>>>>>>> this, related to horizontal scrolling, is font-size. For > >> those > >> >>>>>>>>> of > >> >>>>>>>>> you using HTML-rich mail clients, and using a 25 > >> >>>>>>>>> character-count > >> >>>>>>>>> example taken from > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> http://www.litscape.com/words/length/25_letters/25_letter_ > >> words.html > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> <http://www.litscape.com/words/length/25_letters/25_ > >> letter_words.html>:____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> electroencephalographical____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> (Gmail's____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> '____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> S____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> mall' sizing)____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> electroencephalographical (Gmail's____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> 'Normal' sizing)____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> electroencephalographical (Gmail's____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> 'Large' sizing)____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> electroencephalographical (Gmail's____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> 'Huge' sizing)____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> Q: How do we test for "success" here? Even the final line > >> above > >> >>>>>>>>> (Gmail's "Huge" font-size) could introduce horizontal > >> scrolling > >> >>>>>>>>> at > >> >>>>>>>>> some level of magnification on some devices, yet at 25 > >> >>>>>>>>> characters > >> >>>>>>>>> "meets" the current wording of the proposed SC. ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> Additionally, different font-faces will have different > >> >>>>>>>>> font-width > >> >>>>>>>>> characteristics, depending on the font-face chosen. For > >> >>>>>>>>> example:____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> electroencephalographical (Gmail 'sans-serif', > >> >>>>>>>>> size > >> >>>>>>>>> 'normal')____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> electroencephalographical (Gmail 'Verdana', size > >> >>>>>>>>> 'normal') ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> electroencephalographical (Gmail 'Wide', size > >> >>>>>>>>> 'normal')____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> ...once again, depending on the font-face choice we have 3 > >> >>>>>>>>> different line-lengths, and so I question the overall > >> >>>>>>>>> choice > >> of > >> >>>>>>>>> "character" as a unit of measurement here.____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> *How to 'Succeed'/Author push-back:*____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> The current proposed language for this SC reads:____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> For the visual presentation of all text, a mechanism > is > >> >>>>>>>>> available such that line length is user adjustable, to > >> >>>>>>>>> 25 > >> >>>>>>>>> characters, with no two-dimensional scrolling > required, > >> and > >> >>>>>>>>> with the following exceptions.____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> However, it is unclear what a page author can or should do > >> >>>>>>>>> to > >> >>>>>>>>> meet > >> >>>>>>>>> this requirement____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> , as it very much feels like a User-Agent requirement as > >> >>>>>>>>> much > >> >>>>>>>>> as > >> >>>>>>>>> anything else. For SC 1.4.8, one technique is ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> G204 > >> >>>>>>>>> <https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2016/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20160105/ > >> G204>: > >> >>>>>>>>> /Not interfering with the user agent's reflow of text as > >> >>>>>>>>> the > >> >>>>>>>>> viewing window is narrowed/____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> /, /which seems to me to at least address the larger issue > >> >>>>>>>>> (avoid horizontal scrolling) without prescribing a > specific > >> >>>>>>>>> line-length.____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> Finally, the current Success Criteria that requires an 80 > >> >>>>>>>>> character line-length (____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> SC 1.4.8 > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/visual- > >> audio-contrast-visual-presentation.html>) > >> >>>>>>>>> is a AAA Success Criteria requirement, and yet this new > >> >>>>>>>>> proposed > >> >>>>>>>>> SC is at level A, at roughly 1/3 the 80-char limit. ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> Sadly (but not totally unreasonably) ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> I suspect that we will get significant push-back at level > >> A____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> .____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> JF____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 3:31 PM, David MacDonald > >> >>>>>>>>> <david100@sympatico.ca <mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>> > >> >>>>>>>>> wrote:____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> I'm the manager of Issue #57 line length. > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/57 > >> >>>>>>>>> <https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/57> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> I was asked to explain why 25 characters was chosen as > >> the > >> >>>>>>>>> threshold. I deferred to the LVTF____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> since I did not write that requirement____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> . One point that was mentioned was that 25 characters > >> >>>>>>>>> is > >> >>>>>>>>> about > >> >>>>>>>>> the width of most news article columns. > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> I did a survey of several top news sites on the web > and > >> >>>>>>>>> measured the length of characters when text size is > >> >>>>>>>>> 100% > >> >>>>>>>>> (no zoom) > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> -CNN 74____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> characters without counting spaces 87 with spaces. > >> >>>>>>>>> could > >> >>>>>>>>> narrow to 35 (w/ spaces) in Responsive > >> >>>>>>>>> -NBC 61 no spaces 73 with spaces, could narrow to 39 > >> >>>>>>>>> (w/ > >> >>>>>>>>> spaces) > >> >>>>>>>>> -ABC NEWS 81 no spaces 92 Spaces, could narrow to 43 > in > >> >>>>>>>>> responsive > >> >>>>>>>>> -FoxNews 67 no space 79 spaces could narrow to 45 in > >> >>>>>>>>> responsive > >> >>>>>>>>> -Le Droit french 74 no space, 86 with spaces, no > >> responsive > >> >>>>>>>>> -Google News 73 No Spaces 87 with spaces could narrow > >> >>>>>>>>> to > >> 44 > >> >>>>>>>>> in > >> >>>>>>>>> responsive > >> >>>>>>>>> - Huff post French 67 no spaces 79 with spaces no > >> >>>>>>>>> responsive____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> N____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> one of these sites passed the new SC proposal of 25 > >> >>>>>>>>> characters. They all went to horizontal scroll when > >> window > >> >>>>>>>>> was > >> >>>>>>>>> narrowed less than those ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> minimum character ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> widths shown above.____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> Do we____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> want to make the minimum a little wider, say 45 or 50 > >> >>>>>>>>> characters. > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> For reference, the following is about 25 > >> >>>>>>>>> characters:____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> "This test assesses basic"____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, > >> >>>>>>>>> David MacDonald____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> Tel: 613.235.4902 <tel:(613)%20235-4902>____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> LinkedIn > >> >>>>>>>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> twitter.com/davidmacd > >> >>>>>>>>> <http://twitter.com/davidmacd>____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald>____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/>____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> / Adapting the web to *all* users/____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> / Including those with disabilities/____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review > >> >>>>>>>>> our privacy policy > >> >>>>>>>>> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> -- ____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> John Foliot____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> Principal Accessibility Strategist____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> Deque Systems Inc.____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> john.foliot@deque.com <mailto:john.foliot@deque.com>____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>>> Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and > >> >>>>>>>>> inclusion____ > >> >>>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> -- > >> >>>>>>> Patrick H. Lauke > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>>> www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke > >> >>>>>>> http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com > >> >>>>>>> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke > >> >>>>>>> > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> -- > >> >>>>> John Foliot > >> >>>>> Principal Accessibility Strategist > >> >>>>> Deque Systems Inc. > >> >>>>> john.foliot@deque.com > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> -- > >> >>>> John Foliot > >> >>>> Principal Accessibility Strategist > >> >>>> Deque Systems Inc. > >> >>>> john.foliot@deque.com > >> >>>> > >> >>>> Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> John Foliot > >> >> Principal Accessibility Strategist > >> >> Deque Systems Inc. > >> >> john.foliot@deque.com > >> >> > >> >> Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > John Foliot > > Principal Accessibility Strategist > > Deque Systems Inc. > > john.foliot@deque.com > > > > Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion > > > > > -- > Laura L. Carlson > -- John Foliot Principal Accessibility Strategist Deque Systems Inc. john.foliot@deque.com Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion
Received on Wednesday, 11 January 2017 22:17:59 UTC