- From: Laura Carlson <laura.lee.carlson@gmail.com>
- Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 14:29:16 -0600
- To: John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
- Cc: Wayne Dick <wayneedick@gmail.com>, WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Hi John, You wrote to Wayne: > I am looking forward to seeing your examples, > while at the same time observing that your > email's longest line is 72 characters in > length. Gmail's plain text mode foces hard breaks so no line is longer than 78 characters. Check: https://mathiasbynens.be/notes/gmail-plain-text Kindest Regards, Laura On 1/11/17, John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com> wrote: > Hi Wayne, > > Thank you for weighing in here, as yes, there is a struggle to completely > understand what you are asking for in the Success Criteria. I am looking > forward to seeing your examples, while at the same time observing that your > email's longest line is 72 characters in length. > > You wrote: "The point here is the user can choose" - which gets a 100% > thumbs up from me, but what does that mean for the author (as opposed to > the software/hardware tools being used by the user)? > > And when you speak of 25 characters as being "a little big" what do you > mean by that (please)? 25 characters at 16 pt. is not very big; 25 > characters at 32pt. is big, and 25 characters at 32pt. X 400% magnification > is enormous, so at a minimum I suspect we need to be also stating a unit > measurement at a fixed magnification point for "testing" and compliance > purposes. Do you have any thoughts there? > > One thing I want to address however is your claim "...because today > hyphenation is not well supported." What is this assertion based upon? The > research I've done shows that this is not the case, that currently support > for CSS hyphenation, while not at 100%, is actually quite good today > (source: http://caniuse.com/#search=hyphens) I hate to sound like a broken > record, but I've posted this source now 3 times - can you or somebody else > either refute it or accept it as "true" today? If true, can we dispense > with the "hyphenation is not well supported" claims on this list? Thanks! > > JF > > On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 1:33 PM, Wayne Dick <wayneedick@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi All, >> >> 50 characters is too much. 30 is too much. 25 is a little big but most >> people with low vision can live with it. I know that you have a rough >> time setting up examples right now, but they are not hard to do with >> practice. I'll get to that tomorrow. >> >> The point here is the user can choose. Normal users probably won't >> choose to shorten text because authors construct columns of text for >> normal users. Users with dyslexia will probably choose moderate lines >> 40-55. People who need enlargement and people who have medical field >> loss will choose 25. >> >> From the usability point of view character count is the item to >> measure because it is based on lexical data (letters, digits, >> punctuation, etc.). Word wrapping is a lexical operation and so is >> reading. You don't write a 1-meter essay. You write 1000 words. if you >> want to measure readable of language you must use linguistic measures. >> EM like measures might do. >> >> The key her is user choice. Suppose a German has peripheral field >> loss, a common enough occurrence. The overwhelming number of German >> words are less than 15 characters. See >> http://www.news-by-design.com/infographic/language-length/ . >> 25-letter words occur, but not many. So you have a choice: You can >> short lines and set your user style sheet to break words (because >> today hyphenation is not well supported). Or, you can choose wider >> lines. Your choice. >> >> it is not exact but 15em usually gives about 25 characters. >> >> To say authors aren't used to short columns is just silly. In four >> column format 3 of four columns will be close to 25 characters or >> less. >> >> This is not as hard as it seems. Also if you have normal vision your >> conventional knowledge will not do you much good. >> >> i suggest finding a cardboard tube, like a toilet paper tube. Cut it >> down to where you can only fit 25 characters inside and then try to >> read one of these email string through the cardboard tube. >> >> if you have peripheral field loss or use a screen magnifier, lens or >> CCTV that's what it's like. This problem can be solved, but not by >> making lines too long. >> >> More to come. >> >> Wayne >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 10:21 AM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca> >> wrote: >> > CSS hyphenation (when it is supported) offers the author control, which >> is >> > fine... >> > >> > Cheers, >> > David MacDonald >> > >> > >> > >> > CanAdapt Solutions Inc. >> > >> > Tel: 613.235.4902 >> > >> > LinkedIn >> > >> > twitter.com/davidmacd >> > >> > GitHub >> > >> > www.Can-Adapt.com >> > >> > >> > >> > Adapting the web to all users >> > >> > Including those with disabilities >> > >> > If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy >> > >> > On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 12:28 PM, John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> > most (all) bowsers don't add hyphens >> >> >> >> Sorry David, I have to disagree: most browsers today support the CSS >> >> hyphens attribute (https://www.w3.org/TR/css-text/#hyphens-property), >> >> confirmed by CanIUse here: http://caniuse.com/#search=hyphens >> >> >> >> See also: >> >> http://blog.fontdeck.com/post/9037028497/hyphens >> >> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/hyphens >> >> https://css-tricks.com/almanac/properties/h/hyphenate/ >> >> >> >> JF >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 11:08 AM, David MacDonald < >> david100@sympatico.ca> >> >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> > I would propose we look to Root EMS instead for at least part of >> >>> > this >> >>> > proposal, and that we also include a magnification point (200%? >> 400%?) as >> >>> > also part of the requirement: >> >>> >> >>> I think the latest proposal addresses the magnification issue by >> >>> requiring that the SC be met without zooming text. The downside of >> REMs are >> >>> that it is harder to understand, it is a specific technology, and it >> is a >> >>> relative measurement. Patrick, Jon A., what are your thoughts? >> >>> >> >>> I would also like Makoto and Swetank to respond to the hyphenation >> >>> situation that most (all) bowsers don't add hyphens, and that CSS can >> be use >> >>> to override any hyphenation. >> >>> >> >>> Cheers, >> >>> David MacDonald >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> CanAdapt Solutions Inc. >> >>> >> >>> Tel: 613.235.4902 >> >>> >> >>> LinkedIn >> >>> >> >>> twitter.com/davidmacd >> >>> >> >>> GitHub >> >>> >> >>> www.Can-Adapt.com >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Adapting the web to all users >> >>> >> >>> Including those with disabilities >> >>> >> >>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy >> >>> policy >> >>> >> >>> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 11:24 AM, John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com> >> >>> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> David wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> > We have an established precedent in 1.4.8 of using characters to >> >>>> > measure line length. >> >>>> >> >>>> Hi David, >> >>>> >> >>>> While we may have precedent there, SC 1.4.8 is a AAA Success >> >>>> Criteria, >> >>>> and I am hard-pressed personally to recall a site that meets (and >> reports >> >>>> compliance to) that SC consistently. As we've seen, "character" is a >> very >> >>>> imprecise unit of measurement. >> >>>> >> >>>> I think we need to step back a bit; what is the real goal we are >> trying >> >>>> to achieve here? I don't think it has anything to do with actual >> character >> >>>> count (per-se), but rather that we need developers to not break text >> re-flow >> >>>> (perhaps to a minimum of 25 REMs - Root EMs). Level-set: LVTF, is >> this the >> >>>> real "goal" here? >> >>>> >> >>>> However, given fixed view-port sizes and magnification there will >> >>>> necessitate a trade-off, or else I could envision developers will >> create one >> >>>> line in their document at font-size:40px - perhaps an h1 - and then >> use that >> >>>> as the 'measuring point': 25 X 40px = 1000px, which, as a "baseline, >> would >> >>>> then "allow" paragraph text at 16px. to far exceed the 25 character >> count >> >>>> being proposed (1000 / 16 = 62.5 "characters") It is for this reason >> that I >> >>>> would propose we look to Root EMS instead for at least part of this >> >>>> proposal, and that we also include a magnification point (200%? >> 400%?) as >> >>>> also part of the requirement: >> >>>> >> >>>> <draft> For the visual presentation of all text, text should >> >>>> naturally >> >>>> re-flow to a minimum of 25 REMs at 200% magnification without >> horizontal >> >>>> scrolling, with the following exceptions. </draft> >> >>>> >> >>>> ...or something along those lines. By moving away from actual >> characters >> >>>> (and their "imperfect" unit of measurement), we will likely address >> most >> >>>> concerns around internationalization, and with a more precise unit >> >>>> of >> >>>> measurement, we will be able to better test (mechanically) >> >>>> compliance >> to the >> >>>> new SC. (I'd also look to have this be an AA requirement, as opposed >> to an >> >>>> A, but that is a different discussion...) >> >>>> >> >>>> Thoughts? >> >>>> >> >>>> JF >> >>>> >> >>>> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 8:59 AM, John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com> >> >>>> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> David wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> > No browser that I know would do this: >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> > "Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their >> >>>>> > establish- >> >>>>> > ment party for now and forever" >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Erm... https://www.w3.org/TR/css-text/#hyphens-property >> >>>>> and http://caniuse.com/#search=hyphens >> >>>>> (which suggests support in most browsers with the exception of >> >>>>> Android's native browser) >> >>>>> >> >>>>> JF >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 8:52 AM, David MacDonald >> >>>>> <david100@sympatico.ca> wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Perhaps I'm missing something. For example say there is the line >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> "Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their >> >>>>>> establishment party for now and forever" >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> And lets say that at the end of the word "their" we have a count >> >>>>>> of >> 45 >> >>>>>> characters (I didn't count). The browser window is narrowed to 50 >> >>>>>> characters. Then the line will wrap after "their" and it would >> >>>>>> pass. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> "Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their (45 >> >>>>>> characters) >> >>>>>> establishment party for now and forever ..." >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> This would pass because there are 50 or less characters on that >> line. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> No browser that I know would do this: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> "Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their >> >>>>>> establish- >> >>>>>> ment party for now and forever" >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> In other words.... most lines will be less than 50 characters if >> >>>>>> 50 >> is >> >>>>>> the threshold we decide on. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> We have an established precedent in 1.4.8 of using characters to >> >>>>>> measure line length. I think in a dot release we should stick with >> that, >> >>>>>> unless I'm missing something. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Cheers, >> >>>>>> David MacDonald >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> CanAdapt Solutions Inc. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Tel: 613.235.4902 >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> LinkedIn >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> twitter.com/davidmacd >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> GitHub >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> www.Can-Adapt.com >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Adapting the web to all users >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Including those with disabilities >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy >> >>>>>> policy >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 9:21 AM, Patrick H. Lauke >> >>>>>> <redux@splintered.co.uk> wrote: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> On 11/01/2017 14:12, David MacDonald wrote: >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Hi Shwetank >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Can you help us understand how hyphenation works in those >> languages? >> >>>>>>>> In >> >>>>>>>> English and French, (the languages I speak), the web the page >> >>>>>>>> just >> >>>>>>>> wraps >> >>>>>>>> the entire word if it doesn't fit. So there is not generally >> >>>>>>>> hyphenation >> >>>>>>>> for web writing. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Regardless of language, hyphenation will be up to the browser to >> >>>>>>> do >> >>>>>>> (support isn't fantastic / cross-browser just yet), or would >> require >> >>>>>>> additional JS solutions that forcibly break and hyphenate words >> (which would >> >>>>>>> likely lead to issues where AT would start to read word fragments >> rather >> >>>>>>> than full words). So there are potential technical limitations to >> overcome >> >>>>>>> here as well. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> P >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Cheers, >> >>>>>>>> David MacDonald >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.* >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Tel: 613.235.4902 >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> LinkedIn >> >>>>>>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> twitter.com/davidmacd <http://twitter.com/davidmacd> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> / Adapting the web to *all* users/ >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> / Including those with disabilities/ >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy >> >>>>>>>> policy >> >>>>>>>> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 8:12 AM, Shwetank Dixit >> >>>>>>>> <shwetank@barrierbreak.com <mailto:shwetank@barrierbreak.com>> >> >>>>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> FWIW, I agree with John that character length is not a good >> >>>>>>>> criteria >> >>>>>>>> at all for this purpose, especially from the viewpoint of >> >>>>>>>> non-english languages. I believe the research and guidelines >> >>>>>>>> mentioned in this discussion have not included languages >> >>>>>>>> from >> >>>>>>>> scripts apart from the Latin script (please correct me if >> >>>>>>>> I’m >> >>>>>>>> wrong) >> >>>>>>>> like Devnagari, Gurkumikhi, or any from the CJK ones for >> >>>>>>>> example. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> I am especially concerned about the possibility of >> significantly >> >>>>>>>> increased ‘hyphenation’ that this could result in (which >> >>>>>>>> John >> >>>>>>>> also >> >>>>>>>> mentioned) causing bigger problems from a cognitive >> perspective. >> >>>>>>>> — >> >>>>>>>> Shwetank >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, Jan 11, 2017 at 4:32 PM, Michael Pluke >> >>>>>>>>> <Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com >> >>>>>>>>> <mailto:Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com>> wrote: >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> I can see that the choice of characters as the unit of >> >>>>>>>>> measurement >> >>>>>>>>> can result in very different end-results that you get >> depending >> >>>>>>>>> on >> >>>>>>>>> the chosen font-size and font-face. This may make this unit >> >>>>>>>>> less >> >>>>>>>>> useful from an LV perspective. ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> However I still think that, from a cognitive perspective, >> >>>>>>>>> it >> is >> >>>>>>>>> relevant and important to set a maximum line length in >> >>>>>>>>> characters. >> >>>>>>>>> Long lines with many words/characters are demonstrably hard >> to >> >>>>>>>>> read for everyone but, most particularly for people with >> >>>>>>>>> dyslexia. The 80 characters in SC 1.4.8 >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/visual- >> audio-contrast-visual-presentation.html> >> >>>>>>>>> will cause significant difficulties for many people with >> >>>>>>>>> dyslexia.____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> EA has quoted several research-based sources that offer >> >>>>>>>>> realistic >> >>>>>>>>> line-length proposals. From reading the extract from >> 'Dyslexia >> >>>>>>>>> in >> >>>>>>>>> the Digital Age' that EA linked-to ( >> http://tinyurl.com/jra7hk3) >> >>>>>>>>> I >> >>>>>>>>> don’t think that it gives very strong evidence that 55 >> >>>>>>>>> characters >> >>>>>>>>> is the only choice. I’m a great fan of the realistic >> proposals >> >>>>>>>>> that Luz Rello makes (based on her research >> >>>>>>>>> (http://www.luzrello.com/Publications_files/uais2015.pdf >> >>>>>>>>> <http://www.luzrello.com/Publications_files/uais2015.pdf>)) >> so >> >>>>>>>>> I >> >>>>>>>>> have confidence for specifying line lengths in the 44-66 >> range >> >>>>>>>>> (although it was non-dyslexic people who benefitted most >> >>>>>>>>> from >> >>>>>>>>> 44 >> >>>>>>>>> character columns). The British Dyslexia Style Guide >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> http://www.bdadyslexia.org.uk/common/ckeditor/filemanager/ >> userfiles/About_Us/policies/Dyslexia_Style_Guide.pdf >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> <http://www.bdadyslexia.org.uk/common/ckeditor/ >> filemanager/userfiles/About_Us/policies/Dyslexia_Style_Guide.pdf> >> >>>>>>>>> recommends that “Lines should not be too long: 60 to70 >> >>>>>>>>> characters.”____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> *Conclusion*: Based on all of the above I think that:____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> * To benefit LV users we should avoid having SCs that >> >>>>>>>>> give >> a >> >>>>>>>>> line length based on the number of characters;____ >> >>>>>>>>> * To benefit people with dyslexia (and also the general >> >>>>>>>>> population) the 1.4.8-based 80 character maximum in >> >>>>>>>>> proposal #51 <https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/51> >> >>>>>>>>> should >> >>>>>>>>> be reduced to a figure no greater than 70 characters >> >>>>>>>>> (and >> >>>>>>>>> probably no less than 60).____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Mike____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> *From:*John Foliot [mailto:john.foliot@deque.com >> >>>>>>>>> <mailto:john.foliot@deque.com>] >> >>>>>>>>> *Sent:* 10 January 2017 23:56 >> >>>>>>>>> *To:* David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca >> >>>>>>>>> <mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>> >> >>>>>>>>> *Cc:* WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>> >> >>>>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: Length of line____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> TL;DR - Using 'character' as a unit of measurement is >> extremely >> >>>>>>>>> problematic, and I do not support it's use here. ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> **************____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Some thoughts after today's call.____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> I personally have significant concerns over prescribing a >> fixed >> >>>>>>>>> number of characters, especially such a low number, as a >> >>>>>>>>> unit >> >>>>>>>>> of >> >>>>>>>>> measurement. ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> *Internationalization:*____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> When we factor in both Internationalization and languages >> other >> >>>>>>>>> than English, we will quickly arrive at a point where the >> >>>>>>>>> number >> >>>>>>>>> 25 is smaller than numerous words in different languages >> >>>>>>>>> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_words >> >>>>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_words>), which will >> then >> >>>>>>>>> require word hyphenization (most probably supplied by the >> >>>>>>>>> content >> >>>>>>>>> author, until such time as AI can do that job seamlessly). >> This >> >>>>>>>>> then suggests to me that we will start to see 'forced' >> >>>>>>>>> line-breaks >> >>>>>>>>> again (using the presentational <br>), which could have a >> >>>>>>>>> significant impact on screen flow in RWD (Responsive) >> >>>>>>>>> layouts >> >>>>>>>>> (i.e. the cure being worse the the symptom).____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> *Font-size and font-face choices:*____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Equally, as mentioned on the call, another factor in >> measuring >> >>>>>>>>> this, related to horizontal scrolling, is font-size. For >> those >> >>>>>>>>> of >> >>>>>>>>> you using HTML-rich mail clients, and using a 25 >> >>>>>>>>> character-count >> >>>>>>>>> example taken from >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> http://www.litscape.com/words/length/25_letters/25_letter_ >> words.html >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> <http://www.litscape.com/words/length/25_letters/25_ >> letter_words.html>:____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> electroencephalographical____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> (Gmail's____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> '____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> S____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> mall' sizing)____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> electroencephalographical (Gmail's____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> 'Normal' sizing)____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> electroencephalographical (Gmail's____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> 'Large' sizing)____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> electroencephalographical (Gmail's____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> 'Huge' sizing)____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Q: How do we test for "success" here? Even the final line >> above >> >>>>>>>>> (Gmail's "Huge" font-size) could introduce horizontal >> scrolling >> >>>>>>>>> at >> >>>>>>>>> some level of magnification on some devices, yet at 25 >> >>>>>>>>> characters >> >>>>>>>>> "meets" the current wording of the proposed SC. ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Additionally, different font-faces will have different >> >>>>>>>>> font-width >> >>>>>>>>> characteristics, depending on the font-face chosen. For >> >>>>>>>>> example:____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> electroencephalographical (Gmail 'sans-serif', >> >>>>>>>>> size >> >>>>>>>>> 'normal')____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> electroencephalographical (Gmail 'Verdana', size >> >>>>>>>>> 'normal') ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> electroencephalographical (Gmail 'Wide', size >> >>>>>>>>> 'normal')____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ...once again, depending on the font-face choice we have 3 >> >>>>>>>>> different line-lengths, and so I question the overall >> >>>>>>>>> choice >> of >> >>>>>>>>> "character" as a unit of measurement here.____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> *How to 'Succeed'/Author push-back:*____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> The current proposed language for this SC reads:____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> For the visual presentation of all text, a mechanism is >> >>>>>>>>> available such that line length is user adjustable, to >> >>>>>>>>> 25 >> >>>>>>>>> characters, with no two-dimensional scrolling required, >> and >> >>>>>>>>> with the following exceptions.____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> However, it is unclear what a page author can or should do >> >>>>>>>>> to >> >>>>>>>>> meet >> >>>>>>>>> this requirement____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> , as it very much feels like a User-Agent requirement as >> >>>>>>>>> much >> >>>>>>>>> as >> >>>>>>>>> anything else. For SC 1.4.8, one technique is ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> G204 >> >>>>>>>>> <https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2016/WD-WCAG20-TECHS-20160105/ >> G204>: >> >>>>>>>>> /Not interfering with the user agent's reflow of text as >> >>>>>>>>> the >> >>>>>>>>> viewing window is narrowed/____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> /, /which seems to me to at least address the larger issue >> >>>>>>>>> (avoid horizontal scrolling) without prescribing a specific >> >>>>>>>>> line-length.____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Finally, the current Success Criteria that requires an 80 >> >>>>>>>>> character line-length (____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> SC 1.4.8 >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/visual- >> audio-contrast-visual-presentation.html>) >> >>>>>>>>> is a AAA Success Criteria requirement, and yet this new >> >>>>>>>>> proposed >> >>>>>>>>> SC is at level A, at roughly 1/3 the 80-char limit. ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Sadly (but not totally unreasonably) ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> I suspect that we will get significant push-back at level >> A____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> .____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> JF____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 3:31 PM, David MacDonald >> >>>>>>>>> <david100@sympatico.ca <mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>> >> >>>>>>>>> wrote:____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> I'm the manager of Issue #57 line length. >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/57 >> >>>>>>>>> <https://github.com/w3c/wcag21/issues/57> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> I was asked to explain why 25 characters was chosen as >> the >> >>>>>>>>> threshold. I deferred to the LVTF____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> since I did not write that requirement____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> . One point that was mentioned was that 25 characters >> >>>>>>>>> is >> >>>>>>>>> about >> >>>>>>>>> the width of most news article columns. >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> I did a survey of several top news sites on the web and >> >>>>>>>>> measured the length of characters when text size is >> >>>>>>>>> 100% >> >>>>>>>>> (no zoom) >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> -CNN 74____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> characters without counting spaces 87 with spaces. >> >>>>>>>>> could >> >>>>>>>>> narrow to 35 (w/ spaces) in Responsive >> >>>>>>>>> -NBC 61 no spaces 73 with spaces, could narrow to 39 >> >>>>>>>>> (w/ >> >>>>>>>>> spaces) >> >>>>>>>>> -ABC NEWS 81 no spaces 92 Spaces, could narrow to 43 in >> >>>>>>>>> responsive >> >>>>>>>>> -FoxNews 67 no space 79 spaces could narrow to 45 in >> >>>>>>>>> responsive >> >>>>>>>>> -Le Droit french 74 no space, 86 with spaces, no >> responsive >> >>>>>>>>> -Google News 73 No Spaces 87 with spaces could narrow >> >>>>>>>>> to >> 44 >> >>>>>>>>> in >> >>>>>>>>> responsive >> >>>>>>>>> - Huff post French 67 no spaces 79 with spaces no >> >>>>>>>>> responsive____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> N____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> one of these sites passed the new SC proposal of 25 >> >>>>>>>>> characters. They all went to horizontal scroll when >> window >> >>>>>>>>> was >> >>>>>>>>> narrowed less than those ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> minimum character ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> widths shown above.____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Do we____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> want to make the minimum a little wider, say 45 or 50 >> >>>>>>>>> characters. >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> For reference, the following is about 25 >> >>>>>>>>> characters:____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> "This test assesses basic"____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >> >>>>>>>>> David MacDonald____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Tel: 613.235.4902 <tel:(613)%20235-4902>____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> LinkedIn >> >>>>>>>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> twitter.com/davidmacd >> >>>>>>>>> <http://twitter.com/davidmacd>____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald>____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/>____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> / Adapting the web to *all* users/____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> / Including those with disabilities/____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review >> >>>>>>>>> our privacy policy >> >>>>>>>>> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> -- ____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> John Foliot____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Principal Accessibility Strategist____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Deque Systems Inc.____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> john.foliot@deque.com <mailto:john.foliot@deque.com>____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> __ __ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and >> >>>>>>>>> inclusion____ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> -- >> >>>>>>> Patrick H. Lauke >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> www.splintered.co.uk | https://github.com/patrickhlauke >> >>>>>>> http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ | http://redux.deviantart.com >> >>>>>>> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> -- >> >>>>> John Foliot >> >>>>> Principal Accessibility Strategist >> >>>>> Deque Systems Inc. >> >>>>> john.foliot@deque.com >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> John Foliot >> >>>> Principal Accessibility Strategist >> >>>> Deque Systems Inc. >> >>>> john.foliot@deque.com >> >>>> >> >>>> Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> John Foliot >> >> Principal Accessibility Strategist >> >> Deque Systems Inc. >> >> john.foliot@deque.com >> >> >> >> Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion >> > >> > >> > > > > -- > John Foliot > Principal Accessibility Strategist > Deque Systems Inc. > john.foliot@deque.com > > Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion > -- Laura L. Carlson
Received on Wednesday, 11 January 2017 20:29:51 UTC