RE: Should we require labels to be always visible?

I agree, and again will point out that this also important for those with
low vision....

Katie Haritos-Shea
703-371-5545

On Jan 6, 2017 6:47 PM, "Michael Pluke" <Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com>
wrote:

> I think Gregg:
>
>    - is right to make the warning about the need to only consider things
>    that “disproportionately affect People with disabilities”;
>    - and also completely correct in identifying that this will be a
>    disproportionate problem for many people with cognitive, language and
>    learning disabilities.
>
>
>
> This is probably not the only example where what might conventionally be
> viewed as a usability issue (i.e. something that aids or hinders use for
> all users) becomes an accessibility issue for many people with cognitive,
> language and learning disabilities as it will create a barrier to use that
> they are unable to overcome i.e. they may be totally unable to understand
> what is happening or they may be sufficiently confused to cause them to
> abandon what they are trying to do.
>
>
>
> Isolating all of the issues that fall into this category and knowing where
> to draw the line has been the task of the COGA TF and is now the task for
> everyone to understand and hopefully, in most cases such as this, agree.
>
>
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> *From:* Gregg C Vanderheiden [mailto:greggvan@umd.edu]
> *Sent:* 06 January 2017 21:24
> *To:* Katie Haritos-Shea <ryladog@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Shawn Lauriat <lauriat@google.com>; David MacDonald <
> david100@sympatico.ca>; Joshue O Connor <josh@interaccess.ie>;
> lisa.seeman <lisa.seeman@zoho.com>; Detlev Fischer <
> detlev.fischer@testkreis.de>; GLWAI Guidelines WG org <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Should we require labels to be always visible?
>
>
>
> Good comments
>
>
>
>
>
> remember that WCAG is only about problems that disproportionately affect
> People with disabilities.   If this is a problem for all users— it falls
> outside of WCAG.
>
>
>
>
>
> In this case — I think it is pretty easy to make a case that for
> cognitive, language, and learning disabilities — having the cues for what a
> field means disappear is a disproportionate problem.  But be sure to make
> the case this way.
>
>
>
>
>
> g
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Gregg C Vanderheiden
>
> greggvan@umd.edu
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 6, 2017, at 12:17 PM, Katie Haritos-Shea GMAIL <ryladog@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> +1 Shawn!
>
>
>
> ​​​​​** katie **
>
>
>
> *Katie Haritos-Shea*
> *Principal ICT Accessibility Architect (WCAG/Section 508/ADA/AODA)*
>
>
>
> *Cell: 703-371-5545 <(703)%20371-5545> **|* *ryladog@gmail.com*
> <ryladog@gmail.com> *|* *Oakton, VA **|* *LinkedIn Profile*
> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/katieharitosshea/> *|* *Office: 703-371-5545
> <(703)%20371-5545> **|* *@ryladog* <https://twitter.com/Ryladog>
>
> NOTE: The content of this email should be construed to always be an
> expression of my own personal independent opinion, unless I identify that I
> am speaking on behalf of Knowbility, as their AC Rep at the W3C - and -
> that my personal email never expresses the opinion of my employer, Deque
> Systems.
>
>
>
> *From:* Shawn Lauriat [mailto:lauriat@google.com <lauriat@google.com>]
> *Sent:* Friday, January 6, 2017 11:46 AM
> *To:* David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
> *Cc:* josh@interaccess.ie; lisa.seeman <lisa.seeman@zoho.com>; Detlev
> Fischer <detlev.fischer@testkreis.de>; WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Re[2]: Should we require labels to be always visible?
>
>
>
> As my two cents, I would say always required, and beyond helping around
> cognitive and low-vision, to situational impairments:
>
>    - If the browser helpfully fills in all fields, with duplicate entries
>    in four of them, you have no way of knowing what data really belongs in
>    which field.
>    - If you start to fill out a form and then the phone rings, diverting
>    your attention for an extended period, you won't remember the fields. Even
>    if you just have focus in the field, the placeholder falls off.
>
> Beyond that, using placeholder as a label goes against HTML spec
> <https://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-20110525/common-input-element-attributes.html#the-placeholder-attribute>.
> I know everyone does it these days, so I always say that the label should
> move from inside/over the input to above or next to it, so it remains
> visible.
>
>
>
> Limited space comes down to a design challenge, not a reason to forgo a
> visible label.
>
>
>
> -Shawn
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 11:26 AM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
> wrote:
>
> I would say it's already a best practice...
>
>
>
> Lisa, are those with cognitive disabilities likely to loose track of what
> the field label is, if it disappears after they click on it? Is that a
> common complaint out in the wild about placeholder text for labels?
>
>
> Cheers,
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
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>
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> On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 11:15 AM, josh@interaccess.ie <josh@interaccess.ie>
> wrote:
>
> <chair hat off>
>
>  >Would it help the cognitive community if the label is always visible.
>
> I like the demo David :-)
>
> I couldn't see my clients wearing having to do that. On mobile, there are
> times when screen real estate is so sparse that at best you get an icon and
> placeholder text.
>
> I just  don't think that would fly as a MUST, as best practice maybe. As
> long as it fits into the look and feel guidelines etc.
>
> My 2 cents
>
> Josh
>
>
>
>
> ------ Original Message ------
> From: "Detlev Fischer" <detlev.fischer@testkreis.de>
> To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org; david100@sympatico.ca
> Sent: 06/01/2017 16:03:31
> Subject: Re: Should we require labels to be always visible?
>
> That's one way of doing it, but there will be others. So the requirement
> might be EITHER have external visible label OR if using placeholder, show
> label next to field after focussing field.
> Note that some implementations keep the placeholder text visible even
> after focussing (mostly grey text) until you start typing, which I
> personally find confusing. Not sure whether some SC (COGA?) or technique
> addresses this yet.
>
> David MacDonald schrieb am 06.01.2017 16:51:
>
>
>  Most of the sites I evaluate these days seem to have placeholder text for
> labels. An aria-label helps, but the label still disappears on focus or on
> clicking into the field.
>
>
>  Would it help the cognitive community if the label is always visible. So
> for placeholder labels, should we require that the label appears near the
> field when the user clicks or tabs to the field? Like this?
>
>
>  http://davidmacd.com/widgets/floating-label/floating-placeholder1.html <
> http://davidmacd.com/widgets/floating-label/floating-placeholder1.html>
>
>
>  Cheers,
>  David MacDonald
>
>
>
>  CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
>
>  Tel:  613.235.4902
>
>  LinkedIn  <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
>
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