- From: Wayne Dick <wayneedick@gmail.com>
- Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2017 17:37:01 -0700
- To: John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com>
- Cc: Christophe Strobbe <strobbe@hdm-stuttgart.de>, WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CAJeQ8SA5cgN9ni3_ZxJqMRQgsxcCLJvywN6XYDFZkb4=zhKUGQ@mail.gmail.com>
First, Thank You Christophe That is what I needed. I will insert vertical into my line length algorithm for computing average character width. It is really nice to have an expected result before I start. I cannot do the same statistical analysis with Chinese, but if my line length method for computing actual character size (as opposed to font size) then I can give a method for native speakers to define reasonable variance. For example, in Latin sets, 1.25 is reasonable variance. This was obtained by statistical analysis together with my own common sense l derived from knowing Latin based languages. The numbers may vary by language, but we can give the internationalization an algorithm plus a heuristic for choosing the variance for any language. Thanks again, Wayne On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 12:18 PM, John Foliot <john.foliot@deque.com> wrote: > Hi Christophe, > > Thanks again for a detailed and well researched response. There is a > wealth of information here. > > Wayne, as you are continuing your measurement calculations, have you also > taken into account Ruby content (https://www.w3.org/TR/ruby/)? I'm not > sure how this will impact your experiments, but it strikes me there *may* > be an issue, or at a minimum, the need for some kind of exception to > address Ruby text, which by design is intended to be smaller than the "base > font". > > <ruby> > <rb>WWW</rb> > <rt>World Wide Web</rt> > </ruby> > > *Figure 1.4*: Example of simple ruby markup > > This may be rendered as follows: > > [image: At the bottom left, three large letters reading 'WWW'. On top of > them, in smaller letters, the text 'World Wide Web'. To the right, arrows > and text saying 'ruby base' (bottom) and 'ruby text' (top).] > > *Figure 1.5*: Example of rendering for simple ruby markup in Figure 1.4 > <https://www.w3.org/TR/ruby/#fig1.4> > (source: https://www.w3.org/TR/ruby/#simple-ruby1) > > JF > > > > > On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 11:50 AM, Christophe Strobbe < > strobbe@hdm-stuttgart.de> wrote: > >> Hi Wayne, >> >> I'll just cover Chinese. Each Chinese character "fills" a square of the >> same size, regardless how complex it is. ("Same size" obviously varies with >> font size.) >> As far as I know, the characters don't change depending on text >> orientation, i.e. left-to-right versus top-to-bottom. >> Fonts for Chinese can vary a bit in how much they look like characters >> written with a brush. For example, compare the fonts "DF Fang Song", "DF >> Kai Sho" and "DF Ming" (for traditional Chinese characters) on the page >> <http://pinyin.info/news/2011/taoyuan-international-airport- >> to-adopt-new-style-for-signs/> >> <http://pinyin.info/news/2011/taoyuan-international-airport-to-adopt-new-style-for-signs/>: >> the font "DF Kai Sho" looks most "brush-like". The samples represent the >> three most common font types for Chinese: Ming ("Mincho" in Japanese), Kai >> and Fang Song. (See also the font sample at >> <http://birdtrack.com/TypSampB.pdf> <http://birdtrack.com/TypSampB.pdf>.) >> There are other types of fonts, but the complexity of Chinese characters >> (compared to alphabets such as Latin) and the requirement of legibility >> limit what you can do. For example, there are no italics (or italics cause >> the characters to be rendered as oblique). Even a bold font weight can make >> characters hard to read. That doesn't mean you can't have fancy Chinese >> fonts (see e.g. the samples at <https://chinesefontdesign.com >> /tag/simplified-chinese-font> >> <https://chinesefontdesign.com/tag/simplified-chinese-font>) but you >> wouldn't use these for "normal" text. >> The "one square per character" rule also applies to punctuation, except >> for the middle dot used to separate parts of a non-Chinese name (e.g. >> 列奥纳多‧达‧芬奇, a Chinese transcription of "Leonardo da Vinci"). These >> punctuation marks are therefore known as "fullwidth punctuation", as >> opposed to the "halfwidth punctuation" used in text in the Latin alphabet. >> >> As far as I know, the "one square per character" rule also applies to >> Japanese kanji, hiragana and katakana (in spite of the fact that kana are >> much simpler than most kanji). (Japanese also has half-width kana from the >> early days of Japanese computing, but it seems that they are today only >> used in specific settings - according to Wikipedia: >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-width_kana.) >> >> Best regards, >> >> Christophe Strobbe >> >> >> >> On 31/05/2017 22:50, Wayne Dick wrote: >> >> These are some basic questions about CJK characters. >> >> Are they square? >> Does it matter if we measure width or height? >> Specifically, will lr layout give the same letter spacing as vertical-rl? >> What are the unicode-8 code sequences for visible characters in: Chinese, >> Korean and Japanese? >> Does font family vary as much in these languages as in Latin languages? >> Wayne >> >> >> -- >> Christophe Strobbe >> Akademischer Mitarbeiter >> Responsive Media Experience Research Group (REMEX) >> Hochschule der Medien >> Nobelstraße 10 >> 70569 Stuttgart >> Tel. +49 711 8923 2749 <+49%20711%2089232749> >> >> “I drink tea and I know things.” >> Falsely attributed to Christophe Lannister. >> >> > > > -- > John Foliot > Principal Accessibility Strategist > Deque Systems Inc. > john.foliot@deque.com > > Advancing the mission of digital accessibility and inclusion >
Received on Friday, 2 June 2017 00:38:16 UTC