- From: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
- Date: Wed, 24 May 2017 16:56:17 -0400
- To: "Denis Boudreau (Deque)" <denis.boudreau@deque.com>, "lisa.seeman" <lisa.seeman@zoho.com>
- Cc: Michael Pluke <Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com>, Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>, Gregg C Vanderheiden <greggvan@umd.edu>, "w3c-waI-gl@w3. org" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <CAAdDpDYZNFdbnavvC7yDXr+LToMJQPj4NZLmqZZomG-Z8mS2=w@mail.gmail.com>
I'd like to see a mockup WCAG 2.1 document with, say, 2 pillars. Lisa, what are your thoughts on this? Cheers, David MacDonald *Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.* Tel: 613.235.4902 LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100> twitter.com/davidmacd GitHub <https://github.com/DavidMacDonald> www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/> * Adapting the web to all users* * Including those with disabilities* If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 4:33 PM, Denis Boudreau (Deque) < denis.boudreau@deque.com> wrote: > Andrew, > > Would those pillars be like a W3C Note, to go along with the guidelines? > > /Denis > > > On May 24, 2017, at 14:57, Michael Pluke <Mike.Pluke@castle-consult.com> > wrote: > > > I’m interested to understand what these pillars might look like. I’ve many > times argued that I think that several of the multi-part/multi-bulleted > COGA SCs look more like a new WCAG guideline (the overall scope of the > draft SC) with several underlying SCs represented by the different bullets > (or parts). We know that WCAG guidelines are not meant to be precise or > testable, it is only the SCs below it that are. > > I think that it is because we are trying to sell these hybrid > guideline/multi-SC proposals as SCs that we hit quite so many testability > issues. I suspect several of the objections about untestability often > relate to the guideline-like parts of this hybrid construction. > > If we could isolate the potential new guidelines (probably mostly under > the “understandable” principle), we would hopefully be allowed to add those > to WCAG 2.1 (as there are no testing-related penalties associated with > them). We could then look to see which of the bullets/parts that lie > underneath the guideline might be robust enough to include in 2.1 and > proceed with these. All the other bullets/parts could appear in some form > in the supplemental document. If, at a later date, testable SCs related to > these bullets/parts can be identified they could easily be added into > future versions of WCAG – and they would already have a guideline under > which they could sit. > > If this way of viewing our work is accepted, we would be looking for those > very narrow and precisely scoped items for trying to get into WCAG 2.1. > Every time I have tried to identify these small wins, they have been worked > on and developed to increase their scope (a laudable aim but perhaps a > self-defeating strategy). We’ve never dared to proceed with a nice simple > SC proposal because we continue to aim for the stars. > > Maybe its time to bite the bullet and try to get a few small wins rather > than continue with several bold failures? > > Best regards > > Mike > > *From:* Andrew Kirkpatrick [mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com <akirkpat@adobe.com> > ] > *Sent:* 24 May 2017 19:33 > *To:* Gregg C Vanderheiden <greggvan@umd.edu> > *Cc:* w3c-waI-gl@w3. org <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> > *Subject:* Re: Proposal for moving COGA SC forward > > As I see it, a “pillar” is a somewhat theoretical construct, but > ultimately there would need to be a guideline that is aligned with each of > the pillars for COGA support. > > The guideline may exist already, or it may need to be made. In the COGA > roadmap document there are eight tables of user needs, some of which are > task-specific like “authentication” and others are very broad like “simple > and clear interface”. We will be looking at these to see what can be > reused, as well as whether these are covered by an existing guideline or > not. > > This is quite similar to the work that the Mobile TF has done, resulting > in additional guidelines being suggested. > > Thanks, > AWK > > Andrew Kirkpatrick > Group Product Manager, Accessibility > Adobe > > akirkpat@adobe.com > http://twitter.com/awkawk > > *From: *Gregg Vanderheiden <greggvan@umd.edu> > *Date: *Wednesday, May 24, 2017 at 14:21 > *To: *Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com> > *Cc: *WCAG <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> > *Subject: *Re: Proposal for moving COGA SC forward > > it is not clear what you mean by Pillars > > The standard has informative guidelines and normative SC — which are used > to determine conformance. > > What is a Pillar? Is it normative? is it informative? > > can you give an example of one — and where it would go in WCAG? > > *g* > > Gregg C Vanderheiden > greggvan@umd.edu > > > > > > On May 24, 2017, at 11:18 AM, Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com> > wrote: > > We’ve been talking about ways to encourage the inclusion of success > criteria that benefit users with cognitive or learning disabilities in WCAG > 2.1. The SC proposed by COGA are not going to all make it into WCAG 2.1 > due to a variety of concerns ranging from testability to lack of working > group time to discuss all proposals. Unfortunately for end users with > disabilities, all of the SC proposed are designed to address real problems > faced by some users and without the SC being incorporated into WCAG 2.1 the > users are likely to continue to face barriers. > > Of course, this is also true for low-vision and mobile SC proposals, but > the issue is more acute for COGA as the SC proposals are much more numerous > and we want to help strategize on how to focus the efforts of the group on > a smaller set of COGA SC. With the supplementary guidance document, we will > be able to provide additional best practice-level suggestions to improve > access for users with cognitive disabilities, but we still want to have a > core set of items in WCAG 2.1. > > We are thinking about defining a set of "pillars of cognitive > accessibility" in WCAG 2.1 and then expanding on them in the supplemental > guidance. The pillars would likely be based on ideas from the COGA Roadmap > and Gap Analysis document (https://rawgit.com/w3c/coga/ > master/gap-analysis/#roadmap---tables-of-user-needs > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Frawgit.com%2Fw3c%2Fcoga%2Fmaster%2Fgap-analysis%2F%23roadmap---tables-of-user-needs&data=02%7C01%7C%7C2a805808aae3407fd5b408d4a2d1c58b%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636312469223990412&sdata=IeGrM93cQ%2FwgPty33yqMZ6t1QbISURKj71%2FDbvcfaIE%3D&reserved=0>) > and would provide a structure for 6-8 WCAG 2.1 SC and the additional > guidance within the supplementary document would follow the same pattern. > > This will require some additional work on the part of the COGA TF and from > this group as the current proposals may not fit precisely with the pillars. > We would be looking to draw from the SC proposals made earlier but only > include parts that directly relate to the applicable pillar and that we > think can pass the WG consensus process. Remaining concepts from the SC > proposals would be targeted for inclusion in the supplemental guidance > document. > > We wanted to see if the WG thinks this approach could work and would > support us in making sure we can increase the chance that we have a good > core of improvements for COGA in WCAG 2.1. Please let us know if you have > any thoughts or concerns. > > Thanks, > AWK > > Andrew Kirkpatrick > Group Product Manager, Accessibility > Adobe > > akirkpat@adobe.com > http://twitter.com/awkawk > <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fawkawk&data=02%7C01%7C%7C2a805808aae3407fd5b408d4a2d1c58b%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C636312469223990412&sdata=kHrx6JgE8N%2FVfwDMZ3gcVtkFFedIqORIqhKHWfaJFOs%3D&reserved=0> > > >
Received on Wednesday, 24 May 2017 20:56:54 UTC