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Re: H86: Providing text alternatives for ASCII art, emoticons, and leetspeak

From: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 16:21:32 +0100
Message-ID: <CA+ri+VnFG1tqMDTx04EBPtWODKvADxjzwfG=f61AVSFq2_Yx2A@mail.gmail.com>
To: Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>
Cc: Michael Gower <michael.gower@ca.ibm.com>, Eric Eggert <ee@w3.org>, "w3c-wai-gl@w3.org" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
On a somewhat related current webaim thread (where this technique is cited)
http://webaim.org/discussion/mail_thread?thread=6920

It would be worth considering putting in some advice around use characters
for decoration or use that is contrary to meaning.

I see this a lot and would be good to have a technique to point to (i feel
a pull request coming on)

note: html5 has this advice in relation to right angle brackets used as
breadcrumb markers

The use of the right angle bracket symbol ">" to indicate path direction is
> discouraged as its meaning, in the context used, is not clearly conveyed to
> all users.
>

 http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/common-idioms.html#rel-up

--

Regards

SteveF
HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>

On 28 April 2015 at 15:55, Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com> wrote:

>  I agree with questioning whether it is worth calling out Leet.  It may
> not be our greatest challenge in making accessible content.
>
>
>
> Re: the leet, I was wondering about the leet text myself earlier and
> apparently I’m a total 733t n00b (that’s “Leet Noob” for anyone who hasn’t
> done the extensive 3 minutes of research I have) and wasn’t aware that the
> “xorz” suffix is for emphasis.
>
> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=xorz&defid=952831
>
>
>
> I’d be ok removing the leet example.  What do people think about example
> 1?  If all we were left with using abbr were actual examples of
> unambiguously proper usage of the abbr element that wouldn’t be so bad…
>
>
>
> AWK
>
>
>
> *From:* Steve Faulkner [mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 28, 2015 10:45 AM
> *To:* Michael Gower
> *Cc:* Eric Eggert; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
>
> *Subject:* Re: H86: Providing text alternatives for ASCII art, emoticons,
> and leetspeak
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
> checking using a leet speak encoder
> http://www.robertecker.com/hp/research/leet-converter.php?lang=en
> Austin Rocks = 4u571n r0ck5 (basic leet)
>
> while it is not a bad idea to give examples of how we can provide acess to
> content for some users, it should be clearly stated that this is only a
> partial solution and a basic solution that provides equal access should be
> provided
>
> Example:
>
> 4u571n r0ck5 (Austin Rocks)
>
> on use of <abbr>
>
> HTML5 states:
>
> The abbr element represents an abbreviation or acronym, optionally with
> its expansion.
>
>
>
> if the leet speak is not an abbreviation or acronym it shouldn't be used
> to provide the alternative.
>
> On use of the title attribute: its a notoriously poor UI feature for many
> reasons:
>
> http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2013/01/using-the-html-title-attribute-updated/
>
> has details.
>
> the HTML5 spec provides a warning about title:
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html/dom.html#the-title-attribute.
>
> A related question is: is it worth calling out leet speak? I had to go and
> look it up, I can't recall seeing it used, but I do live under a rock.
>
>
>    --
>
> Regards
>
> SteveF
>
> HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>
>
>
>
> On 28 April 2015 at 15:18, Michael Gower <michael.gower@ca.ibm.com> wrote:
>
> As a new member of this group, I guess I'll take the opportunity to enter
> the fray on this.
>
> "”what’s wrong with the abbr example?”
> Example three in H86 <http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H86.html> is <abbr
> title="Austin Rocks">Au5t1N r0xx0rz</abbr>
> The second part of the Leet looks to me like Rocksers -- kind of a mashup
> of rockers and scissors. I believe the originally point may have been that
> the English equivalent is not actually "Rocks" (that, or the Leet should be
> r0(k5 )
>
> At any rate, the discussion has now moved to whether ABBR is suitable to
> use for surfacing ALT. I agree it is a hack. The Leet is not an
> abbreviation. By the same token, the second item in example 1 should also
> be removed: <abbr title="fright">=8-0</abbr>
>
> However, I'm with Eric on two points: 1) the fact screen readers don't
> implement something by default is not a reason to not implement the
> technique if it is legitimate; 2) other folks, including those with
> cognitive disabilities, can derive benefit from forms of alternative
> information which are not historically available via the user agent alone.
>
> In this situation, the ABBR technique is attractive because it is visually
> indicated by most user agents (as a minutely dashed underline) and provides
> an affordance via hover to expose the TITLE information to mouse users. So
> I think what is called for is for this matter to be flagged to the
> Cognitive TF so they can deal with the multiple questions involved.
>
> Personally, I think using the TITLE as a reinforcement on most uses of ALT
> makes a lot of sense. TITLE is valid on virtually all elements, so can be
> added wherever ALT is used to expose the additional meaning to mouse users.
> My one caution is that I've found that some screen readers will announce
> both the ALT and TITLE if the strings are not identical. So that would need
> to be part of the guidance offered.
>
> That doesn't solve the lack of strong visual affordance for the TITLE or
> the problem with keyboard users not being able to expose the value. But as
> Eric states, "While there may be a user group that isn’t helped using a
> technique, we shouldn’t rule it out for other user groups."
>
> If I've failed to follow any etiquette of the maillist, please feel free
> to advise me privately.
>
> Michael Gower
> Senior Consultant
> IBM Accessibility
>
> 1803 Douglas Street, Victoria, BC  V8T 5C3
> gowerm@ca.ibm.com
> voice: (250) 220-1146 * cel: (250) 661-0098 *  fax: (250) 220-8034
>
>
>
> From:        "Eric Eggert" <ee@w3.org>
> To:        "Andrew Kirkpatrick" <akirkpat@adobe.com>
> Cc:        "David MacDonald" <david100@sympatico.ca>, "Steve Faulkner" <
> faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, "w3c-wai-gl@w3.org" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
> Date:        04/28/2015 05:52 AM
> Subject:        Re: H86: Providing text alternatives for ASCII art,
> emoticons, and   leetspeak
>  ------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> On 28 Apr 2015, at 14:22, Andrew Kirkpatrick wrote:
>
> > My question to Steve that he may have missed was ”what’s wrong
> > with the abbr example?” but David you seem to be raising an argument
> > for not using abbr, which would suggest also removing H28
> > (http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20150226/H28).
>
> Just a quick thought mainly for the H28 discussion (I am not an ASCII
> art connoisseur and don’t know exactly about leetspeak):
>
> I think this is more a screen reader bug and I would consider adding the
> information there is better practice than leaving it out completely,
> even if the user needs to activate the feature in assistive
> technologies.
>
> Also this has implication for people with cognitive disabilities, for
> example, that can’t get to descriptions. While there may be a user
> group that isn’t helped using a technique, we shouldn’t rule it out
> for other user groups. It might also be provided to screen reader users
> by default in the future.
>
> Cheers,
> Eric
>
> >
> > Any additional information is appreciated!
> > Thanks,
> > AWK
> >
> > From: David MacDonald [mailto:david100@sympatico.ca
> <david100@sympatico.ca>]
> > Sent: Monday, April 27, 2015 6:29 PM
> > To: Steve Faulkner
> > Cc: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
> > Subject: Re: H86: Providing text alternatives for ASCII art,
> > emoticons, and leetspeak
> >
> > Agree that we could drop the abbr. It's kind of a hack, and JAWS has
> > abbr support turned off by default, so the abbr may not even speak.
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > David MacDonald
> >
> >
> >
> > CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
> >
> > Tel:  613.235.4902
> >
> > LinkedIn<http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
> >
> > www.Can-Adapt.com<http://www.Can-Adapt.com <http://www.can-adapt.com/>>
> >
> >
> >
> > Adapting the web to all users
> >          Including those with disabilities
> >
> > If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy
> > policy<http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Steve Faulkner
> > <faulkner.steve@gmail.com<mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com
> <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> > http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H86.html
> >
> > suggest adding ARIA-fied example (from html5 spec)
> >
> > <figure role="img" aria-labelledby="fish-caption"
> > <pre>
> > o           .'`/
> >   '      /  (
> > O    .-'` ` `'-._      .')
> >    _/ (o)        '.  .' /
> >    )       )))     ><  <
> >    `\  |_\      _.'  '. \
> >      '-._  _ .-'       '.)
> >  jgs     `\__\
> > </pre>
> > <figcaption id="fish-caption">
> >  <cite>Joan G. Stark, "fish"</cite>.
> >  October 1997. ASCII on electrons. 28×8.
> > </figcaption>
> > </figure>
> >
> > Also question the use of <abbr> in this technique:
> > <abbr title="Austin Rocks">Au5t1N r0xx0rz</abbr>
> > --
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > SteveF
> > HTML 5.1<http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Eric Eggert
> Web Accessibility Specialist
> Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) at Wold Wide Web Consortium (W3C)
>
>
>
>
>
Received on Tuesday, 28 April 2015 15:22:41 UTC

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