- From: Joshue O Connor <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>
- Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 17:23:54 +0100
- To: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
- CC: Andrew Kirkpatrick <akirkpat@adobe.com>, Michael Gower <michael.gower@ca.ibm.com>, Eric Eggert <ee@w3.org>, "w3c-wai-gl@w3.org" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Also as an aside from this is how to use <abbr>. As <acronym> has been deprecated, I think there is scope for <abbr> elements to be used as hacks for many things. I'm not making a value judgement here btw - just an observation. Josh Steve Faulkner wrote: > On a somewhat related current webaim thread (where this technique is cited) > http://webaim.org/discussion/mail_thread?thread=6920 > > It would be worth considering putting in some advice around use characters > for decoration or use that is contrary to meaning. > > I see this a lot and would be good to have a technique to point to (i feel > a pull request coming on) > > note: html5 has this advice in relation to right angle brackets used as > breadcrumb markers > > The use of the right angle bracket symbol ">" to indicate path direction is >> discouraged as its meaning, in the context used, is not clearly conveyed to >> all users. >> > > http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/common-idioms.html#rel-up > > -- > > Regards > > SteveF > HTML 5.1<http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/> > > On 28 April 2015 at 15:55, Andrew Kirkpatrick<akirkpat@adobe.com> wrote: > >> I agree with questioning whether it is worth calling out Leet. It may >> not be our greatest challenge in making accessible content. >> >> >> >> Re: the leet, I was wondering about the leet text myself earlier and >> apparently I’m a total 733t n00b (that’s “Leet Noob” for anyone who hasn’t >> done the extensive 3 minutes of research I have) and wasn’t aware that the >> “xorz” suffix is for emphasis. >> >> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=xorz&defid=952831 >> >> >> >> I’d be ok removing the leet example. What do people think about example >> 1? If all we were left with using abbr were actual examples of >> unambiguously proper usage of the abbr element that wouldn’t be so bad… >> >> >> >> AWK >> >> >> >> *From:* Steve Faulkner [mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com] >> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 28, 2015 10:45 AM >> *To:* Michael Gower >> *Cc:* Eric Eggert; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org >> >> *Subject:* Re: H86: Providing text alternatives for ASCII art, emoticons, >> and leetspeak >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> checking using a leet speak encoder >> http://www.robertecker.com/hp/research/leet-converter.php?lang=en >> Austin Rocks = 4u571n r0ck5 (basic leet) >> >> while it is not a bad idea to give examples of how we can provide acess to >> content for some users, it should be clearly stated that this is only a >> partial solution and a basic solution that provides equal access should be >> provided >> >> Example: >> >> 4u571n r0ck5 (Austin Rocks) >> >> on use of<abbr> >> >> HTML5 states: >> >> The abbr element represents an abbreviation or acronym, optionally with >> its expansion. >> >> >> >> if the leet speak is not an abbreviation or acronym it shouldn't be used >> to provide the alternative. >> >> On use of the title attribute: its a notoriously poor UI feature for many >> reasons: >> >> http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2013/01/using-the-html-title-attribute-updated/ >> >> has details. >> >> the HTML5 spec provides a warning about title: >> http://www.w3.org/TR/html/dom.html#the-title-attribute. >> >> A related question is: is it worth calling out leet speak? I had to go and >> look it up, I can't recall seeing it used, but I do live under a rock. >> >> >> -- >> >> Regards >> >> SteveF >> >> HTML 5.1<http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/> >> >> >> >> On 28 April 2015 at 15:18, Michael Gower<michael.gower@ca.ibm.com> wrote: >> >> As a new member of this group, I guess I'll take the opportunity to enter >> the fray on this. >> >> "”what’s wrong with the abbr example?” >> Example three in H86<http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H86.html> is<abbr >> title="Austin Rocks">Au5t1N r0xx0rz</abbr> >> The second part of the Leet looks to me like Rocksers -- kind of a mashup >> of rockers and scissors. I believe the originally point may have been that >> the English equivalent is not actually "Rocks" (that, or the Leet should be >> r0(k5 ) >> >> At any rate, the discussion has now moved to whether ABBR is suitable to >> use for surfacing ALT. I agree it is a hack. The Leet is not an >> abbreviation. By the same token, the second item in example 1 should also >> be removed:<abbr title="fright">=8-0</abbr> >> >> However, I'm with Eric on two points: 1) the fact screen readers don't >> implement something by default is not a reason to not implement the >> technique if it is legitimate; 2) other folks, including those with >> cognitive disabilities, can derive benefit from forms of alternative >> information which are not historically available via the user agent alone. >> >> In this situation, the ABBR technique is attractive because it is visually >> indicated by most user agents (as a minutely dashed underline) and provides >> an affordance via hover to expose the TITLE information to mouse users. So >> I think what is called for is for this matter to be flagged to the >> Cognitive TF so they can deal with the multiple questions involved. >> >> Personally, I think using the TITLE as a reinforcement on most uses of ALT >> makes a lot of sense. TITLE is valid on virtually all elements, so can be >> added wherever ALT is used to expose the additional meaning to mouse users. >> My one caution is that I've found that some screen readers will announce >> both the ALT and TITLE if the strings are not identical. So that would need >> to be part of the guidance offered. >> >> That doesn't solve the lack of strong visual affordance for the TITLE or >> the problem with keyboard users not being able to expose the value. But as >> Eric states, "While there may be a user group that isn’t helped using a >> technique, we shouldn’t rule it out for other user groups." >> >> If I've failed to follow any etiquette of the maillist, please feel free >> to advise me privately. >> >> Michael Gower >> Senior Consultant >> IBM Accessibility >> >> 1803 Douglas Street, Victoria, BC V8T 5C3 >> gowerm@ca.ibm.com >> voice: (250) 220-1146 * cel: (250) 661-0098 * fax: (250) 220-8034 >> >> >> >> From: "Eric Eggert"<ee@w3.org> >> To: "Andrew Kirkpatrick"<akirkpat@adobe.com> >> Cc: "David MacDonald"<david100@sympatico.ca>, "Steve Faulkner"< >> faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, "w3c-wai-gl@w3.org"<w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> >> Date: 04/28/2015 05:52 AM >> Subject: Re: H86: Providing text alternatives for ASCII art, >> emoticons, and leetspeak >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> >> On 28 Apr 2015, at 14:22, Andrew Kirkpatrick wrote: >> >>> My question to Steve that he may have missed was ”what’s wrong >>> with the abbr example?” but David you seem to be raising an argument >>> for not using abbr, which would suggest also removing H28 >>> (http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20150226/H28). >> Just a quick thought mainly for the H28 discussion (I am not an ASCII >> art connoisseur and don’t know exactly about leetspeak): >> >> I think this is more a screen reader bug and I would consider adding the >> information there is better practice than leaving it out completely, >> even if the user needs to activate the feature in assistive >> technologies. >> >> Also this has implication for people with cognitive disabilities, for >> example, that can’t get to descriptions. While there may be a user >> group that isn’t helped using a technique, we shouldn’t rule it out >> for other user groups. It might also be provided to screen reader users >> by default in the future. >> >> Cheers, >> Eric >> >>> Any additional information is appreciated! >>> Thanks, >>> AWK >>> >>> From: David MacDonald [mailto:david100@sympatico.ca >> <david100@sympatico.ca>] >>> Sent: Monday, April 27, 2015 6:29 PM >>> To: Steve Faulkner >>> Cc: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org >>> Subject: Re: H86: Providing text alternatives for ASCII art, >>> emoticons, and leetspeak >>> >>> Agree that we could drop the abbr. It's kind of a hack, and JAWS has >>> abbr support turned off by default, so the abbr may not even speak. >>> >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> David MacDonald >>> >>> >>> >>> CanAdapt Solutions Inc. >>> >>> Tel: 613.235.4902 >>> >>> LinkedIn<http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100> >>> >>> www.Can-Adapt.com<http://www.Can-Adapt.com<http://www.can-adapt.com/>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Adapting the web to all users >>> Including those with disabilities >>> >>> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy >>> policy<http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Steve Faulkner >>> <faulkner.steve@gmail.com<mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com >> <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>>> wrote: >>> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H86.html >>> >>> suggest adding ARIA-fied example (from html5 spec) >>> >>> <figure role="img" aria-labelledby="fish-caption" >>> <pre> >>> o .'`/ >>> ' / ( >>> O .-'` ` `'-._ .') >>> _/ (o) '. .' / >>> ) )))>< < >>> `\ |_\ _.' '. \ >>> '-._ _ .-' '.) >>> jgs `\__\ >>> </pre> >>> <figcaption id="fish-caption"> >>> <cite>Joan G. Stark, "fish"</cite>. >>> October 1997. ASCII on electrons. 28×8. >>> </figcaption> >>> </figure> >>> >>> Also question the use of<abbr> in this technique: >>> <abbr title="Austin Rocks">Au5t1N r0xx0rz</abbr> >>> -- >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> SteveF >>> HTML 5.1<http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Eric Eggert >> Web Accessibility Specialist >> Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) at Wold Wide Web Consortium (W3C) >> >> >> >> >> >
Received on Tuesday, 28 April 2015 16:24:40 UTC