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Re: H86: Providing text alternatives for ASCII art, emoticons, and leetspeak

From: Christophe Strobbe <strobbe@hdm-stuttgart.de>
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 17:06:58 +0200
Message-ID: <553FA212.2010404@hdm-stuttgart.de>
To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
Hi,

Joining the chorus of cave dwellers ;-)

On 28/04/2015 16:55, Andrew Kirkpatrick wrote:
>
> I agree with questioning whether it is worth calling out Leet.  It may
> not be our greatest challenge in making accessible content.
>

Right, if we cover Leet, does that imply that Verlan
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verlan>, Vesre
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesre> and other kinds of Argot
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argot> are also worth covering? Maybe not.

Best regards,

Christophe

>  
>
> Re: the leet, I was wondering about the leet text myself earlier and
> apparently I’m a total 733t n00b (that’s “Leet Noob” for anyone who
> hasn’t done the extensive 3 minutes of research I have) and wasn’t
> aware that the “xorz” suffix is for emphasis. 
>
> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=xorz&defid=952831
>
>  
>
> I’d be ok removing the leet example.  What do people think about
> example 1?  If all we were left with using abbr were actual examples
> of unambiguously proper usage of the abbr element that wouldn’t be so bad…
>
>  
>
> AWK
>
>  
>
> *From:*Steve Faulkner [mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, April 28, 2015 10:45 AM
> *To:* Michael Gower
> *Cc:* Eric Eggert; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
> *Subject:* Re: H86: Providing text alternatives for ASCII art,
> emoticons, and leetspeak
>
>  
>
> Hi all,
>
> checking using a leet speak encoder
> http://www.robertecker.com/hp/research/leet-converter.php?lang=en
> Austin Rocks = 4u571n r0ck5 (basic leet)
>
> while it is not a bad idea to give examples of how we can provide
> acess to content for some users, it should be clearly stated that this
> is only a partial solution and a basic solution that provides equal
> access should be provided
>
> Example:
>
> 4u571n r0ck5 (Austin Rocks)
>
> on use of <abbr>
>
> HTML5 states:
>
>     The |abbr| element represents an abbreviation or acronym,
>     optionally with its expansion.
>
>  
>
> if the leet speak is not an abbreviation or acronym it shouldn't be
> used to provide the alternative.
>
> On use of the title attribute: its a notoriously poor UI feature for
> many reasons:
> http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2013/01/using-the-html-title-attribute-updated/
>
> has details.
>
> the HTML5 spec provides a warning about title:
> http://www.w3.org/TR/html/dom.html#the-title-attribute.
>
> A related question is: is it worth calling out leet speak? I had to go
> and look it up, I can't recall seeing it used, but I do live under a rock.
>
>
> --
>
> Regards
>
> SteveF
>
> HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>
>
>  
>
> On 28 April 2015 at 15:18, Michael Gower <michael.gower@ca.ibm.com
> <mailto:michael.gower@ca.ibm.com>> wrote:
>
>     As a new member of this group, I guess I'll take the opportunity
>     to enter the fray on this.
>
>     "”what’s wrong with the abbr example?”
>     Example three in H86
>     <http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H86.html>is <abbr title="Austin
>     Rocks">Au5t1N r0xx0rz</abbr>
>     The second part of the Leet looks to me like Rocksers -- kind of a
>     mashup of rockers and scissors. I believe the originally point may
>     have been that the English equivalent is not actually "Rocks"
>     (that, or the Leet should be r0(k5 )
>
>     At any rate, the discussion has now moved to whether ABBR is
>     suitable to use for surfacing ALT. I agree it is a hack. The Leet
>     is not an abbreviation. By the same token, the second item in
>     example 1 should also be removed: <abbr title="fright">=8-0</abbr>
>
>     However, I'm with Eric on two points: 1) the fact screen readers
>     don't implement something by default is not a reason to not
>     implement the technique if it is legitimate; 2) other folks,
>     including those with cognitive disabilities, can derive benefit
>     from forms of alternative information which are not historically
>     available via the user agent alone.
>
>     In this situation, the ABBR technique is attractive because it is
>     visually indicated by most user agents (as a minutely dashed
>     underline) and provides an affordance via hover to expose the
>     TITLE information to mouse users. So I think what is called for is
>     for this matter to be flagged to the Cognitive TF so they can deal
>     with the multiple questions involved.
>
>     Personally, I think using the TITLE as a reinforcement on most
>     uses of ALT makes a lot of sense. TITLE is valid on virtually all
>     elements, so can be added wherever ALT is used to expose the
>     additional meaning to mouse users. My one caution is that I've
>     found that some screen readers will announce both the ALT and
>     TITLE if the strings are not identical. So that would need to be
>     part of the guidance offered.
>
>     That doesn't solve the lack of strong visual affordance for the
>     TITLE or the problem with keyboard users not being able to expose
>     the value. But as Eric states, "While there may be a user group
>     that isn’t helped using a technique, we shouldn’t rule it out for
>     other user groups."
>
>     If I've failed to follow any etiquette of the maillist, please
>     feel free to advise me privately.
>
>     Michael Gower
>     Senior Consultant
>     IBM Accessibility
>
>     1803 Douglas Street, Victoria, BC  V8T 5C3
>     gowerm@ca.ibm.com <mailto:gowerm@ca.ibm.com>
>     voice: (250) 220-1146 <tel:%28250%29%20220-1146> * cel: (250)
>     661-0098 <tel:%28250%29%20661-0098> *  fax: (250) 220-8034
>     <tel:%28250%29%20220-8034>
>
>
>
>     From:        "Eric Eggert" <ee@w3.org <mailto:ee@w3.org>>
>     To:        "Andrew Kirkpatrick" <akirkpat@adobe.com
>     <mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>>
>     Cc:        "David MacDonald" <david100@sympatico.ca
>     <mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>>, "Steve Faulkner"
>     <faulkner.steve@gmail.com <mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com>>,
>     "w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
>     <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>>
>     Date:        04/28/2015 05:52 AM
>     Subject:        Re: H86: Providing text alternatives for ASCII
>     art, emoticons, and   leetspeak
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>     On 28 Apr 2015, at 14:22, Andrew Kirkpatrick wrote:
>
>     > My question to Steve that he may have missed was ”what’s wrong
>     > with the abbr example?” but David you seem to be raising an argument
>     > for not using abbr, which would suggest also removing H28
>     > (http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20150226/H28).
>
>     Just a quick thought mainly for the H28 discussion (I am not an ASCII
>     art connoisseur and don’t know exactly about leetspeak):
>
>     I think this is more a screen reader bug and I would consider
>     adding the
>     information there is better practice than leaving it out completely,
>     even if the user needs to activate the feature in assistive
>     technologies.
>
>     Also this has implication for people with cognitive disabilities, for
>     example, that can’t get to descriptions. While there may be a user
>     group that isn’t helped using a technique, we shouldn’t rule it out
>     for other user groups. It might also be provided to screen reader
>     users
>     by default in the future.
>
>     Cheers,
>     Eric
>
>     >
>     > Any additional information is appreciated!
>     > Thanks,
>     > AWK
>     >
>     > From: David MacDonald [mailto:david100@sympatico.ca]
>     > Sent: Monday, April 27, 2015 6:29 PM
>     > To: Steve Faulkner
>     > Cc: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
>     > Subject: Re: H86: Providing text alternatives for ASCII art,
>     > emoticons, and leetspeak
>     >
>     > Agree that we could drop the abbr. It's kind of a hack, and JAWS has
>     > abbr support turned off by default, so the abbr may not even speak.
>     >
>     >
>     > Cheers,
>     >
>     > David MacDonald
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
>     >
>     > Tel:  613.235.4902 <tel:613.235.4902>
>     >
>     > LinkedIn<http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>     >
>     > www.Can-Adapt.com
>     <http://www.Can-Adapt.com><http://www.Can-Adapt.com
>     <http://www.can-adapt.com/>>
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > Adapting the web to all users
>     >          Including those with disabilities
>     >
>     > If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy
>     > policy<http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>     >
>     > On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Steve Faulkner
>     > <faulkner.steve@gmail.com
>     <mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com><mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com>> wrote:
>     > http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H86.html
>     >
>     > suggest adding ARIA-fied example (from html5 spec)
>     >
>     > <figure role="img" aria-labelledby="fish-caption"
>     > <pre>
>     > o           .'`/
>     >   '      /  (
>     > O    .-'` ` `'-._      .')
>     >    _/ (o)        '.  .' /
>     >    )       )))     ><  <
>     >    `\  |_\      _.'  '. \
>     >      '-._  _ .-'       '.)
>     >  jgs     `\__\
>     > </pre>
>     > <figcaption id="fish-caption">
>     >  <cite>Joan G. Stark, "fish"</cite>.
>     >  October 1997. ASCII on electrons. 28×8.
>     > </figcaption>
>     > </figure>
>     >
>     > Also question the use of <abbr> in this technique:
>     > <abbr title="Austin Rocks">Au5t1N r0xx0rz</abbr>
>     > --
>     >
>     > Regards
>     >
>     > SteveF
>     > HTML 5.1<http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>
>
>
>
>
>     --
>
>     Eric Eggert
>     Web Accessibility Specialist
>     Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) at Wold Wide Web Consortium (W3C)
>
>
>
>  
>


-- 
Christophe Strobbe
Akademischer Mitarbeiter
Responsive Media Experience Research Group (REMEX)
Hochschule der Medien
Nobelstraße 10
70569 Stuttgart
Tel. +49 711 8923 2749

“It is possible to make a living making free software for freedom 
instead of closed-source proprietary malware for cops.” 
Jacob Appelbaum, 
<http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2012/12/28/jacob-appelbaum-on-resisting-the-surveillance-state/>
Received on Tuesday, 28 April 2015 15:07:08 UTC

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