- From: Christophe Strobbe <strobbe@hdm-stuttgart.de>
- Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2015 17:06:58 +0200
- To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
- Message-ID: <553FA212.2010404@hdm-stuttgart.de>
Hi, Joining the chorus of cave dwellers ;-) On 28/04/2015 16:55, Andrew Kirkpatrick wrote: > > I agree with questioning whether it is worth calling out Leet. It may > not be our greatest challenge in making accessible content. > Right, if we cover Leet, does that imply that Verlan <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verlan>, Vesre <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesre> and other kinds of Argot <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argot> are also worth covering? Maybe not. Best regards, Christophe > > > Re: the leet, I was wondering about the leet text myself earlier and > apparently I’m a total 733t n00b (that’s “Leet Noob” for anyone who > hasn’t done the extensive 3 minutes of research I have) and wasn’t > aware that the “xorz” suffix is for emphasis. > > http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=xorz&defid=952831 > > > > I’d be ok removing the leet example. What do people think about > example 1? If all we were left with using abbr were actual examples > of unambiguously proper usage of the abbr element that wouldn’t be so bad… > > > > AWK > > > > *From:*Steve Faulkner [mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Tuesday, April 28, 2015 10:45 AM > *To:* Michael Gower > *Cc:* Eric Eggert; w3c-wai-gl@w3.org > *Subject:* Re: H86: Providing text alternatives for ASCII art, > emoticons, and leetspeak > > > > Hi all, > > checking using a leet speak encoder > http://www.robertecker.com/hp/research/leet-converter.php?lang=en > Austin Rocks = 4u571n r0ck5 (basic leet) > > while it is not a bad idea to give examples of how we can provide > acess to content for some users, it should be clearly stated that this > is only a partial solution and a basic solution that provides equal > access should be provided > > Example: > > 4u571n r0ck5 (Austin Rocks) > > on use of <abbr> > > HTML5 states: > > The |abbr| element represents an abbreviation or acronym, > optionally with its expansion. > > > > if the leet speak is not an abbreviation or acronym it shouldn't be > used to provide the alternative. > > On use of the title attribute: its a notoriously poor UI feature for > many reasons: > http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2013/01/using-the-html-title-attribute-updated/ > > has details. > > the HTML5 spec provides a warning about title: > http://www.w3.org/TR/html/dom.html#the-title-attribute. > > A related question is: is it worth calling out leet speak? I had to go > and look it up, I can't recall seeing it used, but I do live under a rock. > > > -- > > Regards > > SteveF > > HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/> > > > > On 28 April 2015 at 15:18, Michael Gower <michael.gower@ca.ibm.com > <mailto:michael.gower@ca.ibm.com>> wrote: > > As a new member of this group, I guess I'll take the opportunity > to enter the fray on this. > > "”what’s wrong with the abbr example?” > Example three in H86 > <http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H86.html>is <abbr title="Austin > Rocks">Au5t1N r0xx0rz</abbr> > The second part of the Leet looks to me like Rocksers -- kind of a > mashup of rockers and scissors. I believe the originally point may > have been that the English equivalent is not actually "Rocks" > (that, or the Leet should be r0(k5 ) > > At any rate, the discussion has now moved to whether ABBR is > suitable to use for surfacing ALT. I agree it is a hack. The Leet > is not an abbreviation. By the same token, the second item in > example 1 should also be removed: <abbr title="fright">=8-0</abbr> > > However, I'm with Eric on two points: 1) the fact screen readers > don't implement something by default is not a reason to not > implement the technique if it is legitimate; 2) other folks, > including those with cognitive disabilities, can derive benefit > from forms of alternative information which are not historically > available via the user agent alone. > > In this situation, the ABBR technique is attractive because it is > visually indicated by most user agents (as a minutely dashed > underline) and provides an affordance via hover to expose the > TITLE information to mouse users. So I think what is called for is > for this matter to be flagged to the Cognitive TF so they can deal > with the multiple questions involved. > > Personally, I think using the TITLE as a reinforcement on most > uses of ALT makes a lot of sense. TITLE is valid on virtually all > elements, so can be added wherever ALT is used to expose the > additional meaning to mouse users. My one caution is that I've > found that some screen readers will announce both the ALT and > TITLE if the strings are not identical. So that would need to be > part of the guidance offered. > > That doesn't solve the lack of strong visual affordance for the > TITLE or the problem with keyboard users not being able to expose > the value. But as Eric states, "While there may be a user group > that isn’t helped using a technique, we shouldn’t rule it out for > other user groups." > > If I've failed to follow any etiquette of the maillist, please > feel free to advise me privately. > > Michael Gower > Senior Consultant > IBM Accessibility > > 1803 Douglas Street, Victoria, BC V8T 5C3 > gowerm@ca.ibm.com <mailto:gowerm@ca.ibm.com> > voice: (250) 220-1146 <tel:%28250%29%20220-1146> * cel: (250) > 661-0098 <tel:%28250%29%20661-0098> * fax: (250) 220-8034 > <tel:%28250%29%20220-8034> > > > > From: "Eric Eggert" <ee@w3.org <mailto:ee@w3.org>> > To: "Andrew Kirkpatrick" <akirkpat@adobe.com > <mailto:akirkpat@adobe.com>> > Cc: "David MacDonald" <david100@sympatico.ca > <mailto:david100@sympatico.ca>>, "Steve Faulkner" > <faulkner.steve@gmail.com <mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com>>, > "w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org > <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>> > Date: 04/28/2015 05:52 AM > Subject: Re: H86: Providing text alternatives for ASCII > art, emoticons, and leetspeak > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > On 28 Apr 2015, at 14:22, Andrew Kirkpatrick wrote: > > > My question to Steve that he may have missed was ”what’s wrong > > with the abbr example?” but David you seem to be raising an argument > > for not using abbr, which would suggest also removing H28 > > (http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20150226/H28). > > Just a quick thought mainly for the H28 discussion (I am not an ASCII > art connoisseur and don’t know exactly about leetspeak): > > I think this is more a screen reader bug and I would consider > adding the > information there is better practice than leaving it out completely, > even if the user needs to activate the feature in assistive > technologies. > > Also this has implication for people with cognitive disabilities, for > example, that can’t get to descriptions. While there may be a user > group that isn’t helped using a technique, we shouldn’t rule it out > for other user groups. It might also be provided to screen reader > users > by default in the future. > > Cheers, > Eric > > > > > Any additional information is appreciated! > > Thanks, > > AWK > > > > From: David MacDonald [mailto:david100@sympatico.ca] > > Sent: Monday, April 27, 2015 6:29 PM > > To: Steve Faulkner > > Cc: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org <mailto:w3c-wai-gl@w3.org> > > Subject: Re: H86: Providing text alternatives for ASCII art, > > emoticons, and leetspeak > > > > Agree that we could drop the abbr. It's kind of a hack, and JAWS has > > abbr support turned off by default, so the abbr may not even speak. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > David MacDonald > > > > > > > > CanAdapt Solutions Inc. > > > > Tel: 613.235.4902 <tel:613.235.4902> > > > > LinkedIn<http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100> > > > > www.Can-Adapt.com > <http://www.Can-Adapt.com><http://www.Can-Adapt.com > <http://www.can-adapt.com/>> > > > > > > > > Adapting the web to all users > > Including those with disabilities > > > > If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy > > policy<http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html> > > > > On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 9:50 AM, Steve Faulkner > > <faulkner.steve@gmail.com > <mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com><mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com>> wrote: > > http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H86.html > > > > suggest adding ARIA-fied example (from html5 spec) > > > > <figure role="img" aria-labelledby="fish-caption" > > <pre> > > o .'`/ > > ' / ( > > O .-'` ` `'-._ .') > > _/ (o) '. .' / > > ) ))) >< < > > `\ |_\ _.' '. \ > > '-._ _ .-' '.) > > jgs `\__\ > > </pre> > > <figcaption id="fish-caption"> > > <cite>Joan G. Stark, "fish"</cite>. > > October 1997. ASCII on electrons. 28×8. > > </figcaption> > > </figure> > > > > Also question the use of <abbr> in this technique: > > <abbr title="Austin Rocks">Au5t1N r0xx0rz</abbr> > > -- > > > > Regards > > > > SteveF > > HTML 5.1<http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/> > > > > > -- > > Eric Eggert > Web Accessibility Specialist > Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) at Wold Wide Web Consortium (W3C) > > > > > -- Christophe Strobbe Akademischer Mitarbeiter Responsive Media Experience Research Group (REMEX) Hochschule der Medien Nobelstraße 10 70569 Stuttgart Tel. +49 711 8923 2749 “It is possible to make a living making free software for freedom instead of closed-source proprietary malware for cops.” Jacob Appelbaum, <http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2012/12/28/jacob-appelbaum-on-resisting-the-surveillance-state/>
Received on Tuesday, 28 April 2015 15:07:08 UTC