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Re: Action item: table with TH with and without scope

From: Sailesh Panchang <spanchang02@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 08:17:25 -0800 (PST)
Message-ID: <1383668245.38132.YahooMailBasic@web125005.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
To: 'WCAG' <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>
Cc: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>, 'Joshue O Connor' <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>, "kirsten@can-adapt.com" <kirsten@can-adapt.com>
Please see use of scope in col#1 for group header cells in 
http://mars.dequecloud.com/demo/Table-multi-col.htm
Also see 
http://community.nvda-project.org/ticket/3245
As suggested by NVAccess , I submitted a bug for Firefox:
Mozilla bug submitted June 9, 2013
881048 Submitted – Recognizing column headers marked up as TH in a table- improvement needed) – 

Regards,
Sailesh

--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 10/23/13, Marco Zehe <mzehe@mozilla.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: Action item: table with TH with and without scope
 To: "Katie Haritos-Shea" <ryladog@earthlink.net>
 Cc: "Hoffman,Allen" <allen.hoffman@hq.dhs.gov>, "Sailesh Panchang" <spanchang02@yahoo.com>, "David MacDonald" <david100@sympatico.ca>, "james nurthen" <james.nurthen@oracle.com>, "'WCAG'" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, "'Joshue O Connor'" <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>, "kirsten@can-adapt.com" <kirsten@can-adapt.com>
 Date: Wednesday, October 23, 2013, 4:22 AM
 
 FWIW, Firefox uses the scope
 attribute as well to map headers for table cells so NVDA and
 other IA2/ATK clients can take full advantage. Even on
 simple tables, the scope attribute guarantees that Firefox
 knows if a header cell is a row or column header cell. We
 also have heuristics in there that try to determine this
 from other markup, but as with all heuristics, if the table
 markup starts getting crazy, they can fail.
 
 Marco
 
 On Oct 23, 2013, at 1:02 AM, Katie Haritos-Shea <ryladog@earthlink.net>
 wrote:
 
 > I am in violent agreement with Allen on this.
 > 
 > Katie
 > 
 > 
 > -----Original Message-----
 >> From: "Hoffman, Allen" <allen.hoffman@hq.dhs.gov>
 >> Sent: Oct 22, 2013 11:26 AM
 >> To: Sailesh Panchang <spanchang02@yahoo.com>,
 David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>,
 james nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com>
 >> Cc: 'WCAG' <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>,
 'Joshue O Connor' <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>,
 "kirsten@can-adapt.com"
 <kirsten@can-adapt.com>
 >> Subject: RE: Action item: table with TH with and
 without scope
 >> 
 >> Just for the record.
 >> Interoperability with JAWS should never be used as
 an indicator of sufficiency.  Determining if sufficient
 programmatic information is made available via the various
 mechanisms involved is the determiner--JAWS may use the
 information or not, but many use other tools for
 access.  Writing code to any specific AT should imply
 it is the only solution within a defined environment which
 does happen, but WCAG is not an environment specific set of
 techniques.
 >> 
 >> 
 >> 
 >> 
 >> -----Original Message-----
 >> From: Sailesh Panchang [mailto:spanchang02@yahoo.com]
 
 >> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:19 AM
 >> To: David MacDonald; james nurthen
 >> Cc: 'WCAG'; 'Joshue O Connor'; kirsten@can-adapt.com
 >> Subject: Re: Action item: table with TH with and
 without scope
 >> 
 >> James,
 >> Yes scope does need to be added to the simplest
 tables too in certain situations. One such is already in the
 existing technique for scope. Look at the Contact Us
 table  where row header is in col#2 and not col#1. 
 >> That table is in a page of the Resources link for
 the technique. 
 >> But that is not the subject of the comments being
 considered by Survey #9 or 11. David M has detailed the
 problem again.
 >> And it
 >> Sailesh
 >> 
 >> --------------------------------------------
 >> On Mon, 10/21/13, james nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com>
 wrote:
 >> 
 >> Subject: Re: Action item: table with TH with and
 without scope
 >> To: "David MacDonald" <david100@sympatico.ca>
 >> Cc: "'Sailesh Panchang'" <spanchang02@yahoo.com>,
 "'WCAG'" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>,
 "'Joshue O Connor'" <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>,
 kirsten@can-adapt.com
 >> Date: Monday, October 21, 2013, 2:28 PM
 >> 
 >> David,
 >> I meant H51 not H63 - sorry.
 >> It was my understanding that Sailesh is proposing
 that scope
 >> be added even for the simplest tables. I find this
 >> unnecessary. If you take the following example -
 this works
 >> absolutely fine in JAWS and FF. It is only when
 tables get
 >> more complex (i.e. when row and column headers are
 not in
 >> the first column and row of the table) when scope
 becomes
 >> necessary.
 >> 
 >> <table border="1">
 >>   <caption>Contact
 Information</caption>
 >>   <tbody><tr>
 >> 
 >>     <th>Name</th>
 >> 
    <th>Phone#</th>
 >>     <th>Fax#</th>
 >>     <th>City</th>
 >>   </tr><tr>
 >> 
 >>     <th>Joel
 Garner</th>
 >> 
    <td>412-212-5421</td>
 >> 
    <td>412-212-5400</td>
 >> 
    <td>Pittsburgh</td>
 >>   </tr><tr>
 >> 
 >>     <th>Clive
 Lloyd</th>
 >> 
    <td>410-306-1420</td>
 >> 
    <td>410-306-5400</td>
 >> 
    <td>Baltimore</td>
 >>   </tr><tr>
 >> 
 >>     <th>Gordon
 Greenidge</th>
 >> 
    <td>281-564-6720</td>
 >> 
    <td>281-511-6600</td>
 >> 
    <td>Houston</td>
 >>   </tr>
 >> </tbody></table>
 >> 
 >> Regards,
 >> James
 >> 
 >> 
 >> On 10/19/2013 10:10 AM, David MacDonald wrote:
 >>> PS
 >>> Note, the tweaked table and added h63 test is
 here:
 >>> http://davidmacd.com/test/sailesh-table-test.html
 >>> =============
 >>> Not sure I understand the question James... I
 don't
 >> think anyone is
 >>> proposing this table for any of our
 techniques... it is
 >> simply a test
 >>> table...
 >>> 
 >>> I had several action items.
 >>> 1) Check hx in a table
 >>> 2) Check what is reported to an API when there
 are two
 >> level of <th>
 >>> 3) Check the behaviour with and without the
 scope
 >>> 4) Check what AT reads two layers of table
 >> <th>without ids, headers
 >>> 
 >>> Sailesh produced a table for the tests which I
 tweaked
 >> to make it validate
 >>> and tested using my full morning to do so.
 >>> I think h63 was a smaller part of the
 discussion as I
 >> understand it.
 >>> But just for thoroughness I have done the same
 test
 >> with h63 example code,
 >>> and have added it to the page, as well as the
 results
 >> of the testing.
 >>> In JAWS the scope is necessary to prevent all
 the row
 >> headers above a row
 >>> header from being read hen tabbing into the row
 header
 >> column, and the same
 >>> for column headers. This appears to be
 behaviour just
 >> in JAWS and not in
 >>> NVDA, or Voice Over.
 >>> 
 >>> I hope that these tests fulfill my action
 items, and
 >> informs the group
 >>> regarding:
 >>> 
 >>> 1) the outstanding issue of <hx> headings
 in a
 >> table
 >>> 2) recommendations about the necessity or
 non-necessity
 >> of scope on simple
 >>> tables
 >>> 3) the question about two lawyers of headings
 reading
 >> fine in both JAWS and
 >>> NVDA without headers and ids
 >>> 
 >>> Cheers,
 >>> David MacDonald
 >>> 
 >>> CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
 >>> Tel:  613.235.4902
 >>> http://ca.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100
 >>> www.Can-Adapt.com
 >>>         Adapting
 the web to all
 >> users
 >>>             
 
 >> Including those with disabilities
 >>> 
 >>> This e-mail originates from CanAdapt Solutions
 Inc. Any
 >> distribution, use or
 >>> copying of this e-mail or the information it
 contains
 >> by other than the
 >>> intended recipient(s) is unauthorized. If you
 are not
 >> the intended
 >>> recipient, please notify me at the telephone
 number
 >> shown above or by return
 >>> e-mail and delete this communication and any
 copy
 >> immediately. Thank you.
 >>> 
 >>> Le présent courriel a été expédié par
 CanAdapt
 >> Solutions Inc. Toute
 >>> distribution, utilisation ou reproduction du
 courriel
 >> ou des renseignements
 >>> qui s'y trouvent par une personne autre que
 son
 >> destinataire prévu est
 >>> interdite. Si vous avez reçu le message par
 erreur,
 >> veuillez m'en aviser par
 >>> téléphone (au numéro précité) ou par
 courriel,
 >> puis supprimer sans délai la
 >>> version originale de la communication ainsi que
 toutes
 >> ses copies. Je vous
 >>> remercie de votre collaboration.
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>> -----Original Message-----
 >>> From: James Nurthen [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com]
 >>> Sent: October 19, 2013 12:11 PM
 >>> To: David MacDonald
 >>> Cc: 'Sailesh Panchang'; 'WCAG'; 'Joshue O
 Connor'; kirsten@can-adapt.com
 >>> Subject: Re: Action item: table with TH with
 and
 >> without scope
 >>> 
 >>> If we are discussing modifying H63 to include
 scope
 >> shouldn't we use a
 >>> simpler table than the example (one without
 these extra
 >> H3 cells in the
 >>> table)?
 >>> 
 >>> Regards,
 >>> James
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >>> On Oct 19, 2013, at 8:55 AM, David MacDonald
 <david100@sympatico.ca>
 >> wrote:
 >>> 
 >>>> Hi Sailesh and all
 >>>> 
 >>>> I tested the table with NVDA, VoiceOver and
 Jaws
 >> and updated results
 >>>> after the tables on the page below.
 >>>> http://davidmacd.com/test/sailesh-table-test.ht
 >>>> 
 >>>> Cheers
 >>>> David MacDonald
 >>>> 
 >>>> -----Original Message-----
 >>>> From: Sailesh Panchang [mailto:spanchang02@yahoo.com]
 >>>> Sent: October 17, 2013 11:21 PM
 >>>> To: WCAG; Joshue O Connor
 >>>> Subject: Action item: table with TH with
 and
 >> without scope
 >>>> 
 >>>> Survey items #9 and 11::
 >>>> The comments in May 2013  were
 primarily
 >> influenced because of better
 >>>> support for the scope attribute by JAWS and
 NVDA.
 >>>> NVDA 2012 like JAWS read all cells marked
 up as TH
 >> to the left of
 >>>> current cell (in column header rows) and
 all cells
 >> marked up as TH
 >>>> above current cell for row header cells.
 (NVDA 2013
 >> does not do so
 >>>> now) And I was using an older version of FF
 in
 >> April / May.
 >>>> Hence changes were suggested to H63 and H51
 (survey
 >> items 9 and 11.
 >>>> This comment was never submitted as a new
 technique
 >> but suggested a
 >>>> few changes to the existing technique.
 >>>> Representing it as a new technique in the
 survey is
 >> not appropriate.
 >>>> For H63 survey item#9: The example refers
 to a
 >> 'published schedule'
 >>>> but the code that follows that is a contact
 info
 >> table.
 >>>> That contact Info table is from a link of
 the
 >> Resources page for H63.
 >>>> Here is a link to tables marked up with TH
 with and
 >> without the scope
 >>>> attribute.
 >>>> http://mars.dequecloud.com/demo/Table_scopeDemo.htm
 >>>> 
 >>>> Regards,
 >>>> Sailesh
 >>>> 
 >>>> 
 >>>> 
 >>>> 
 >>> 
 >>> 
 >> 
 >> 
 >> 
 >> 
 >> 
 >> 
 > 
 > 
 > * katie *
 > 
 > Katie Haritos-Shea 
 > Section 508 Technical Policy Analyst
 > 
 > 703-371-5545
 > 
 > People may forget exactly what it was that you said or
 did, 
 > but they will never forget how you made them
 feel.......
 > 
 
 
Received on Tuesday, 5 November 2013 16:18:06 UTC

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