Re: Action item: table with TH with and without scope

FWIW, Firefox uses the scope attribute as well to map headers for table cells so NVDA and other IA2/ATK clients can take full advantage. Even on simple tables, the scope attribute guarantees that Firefox knows if a header cell is a row or column header cell. We also have heuristics in there that try to determine this from other markup, but as with all heuristics, if the table markup starts getting crazy, they can fail.

Marco

On Oct 23, 2013, at 1:02 AM, Katie Haritos-Shea <ryladog@earthlink.net> wrote:

> I am in violent agreement with Allen on this.
> 
> Katie
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: "Hoffman, Allen" <allen.hoffman@hq.dhs.gov>
>> Sent: Oct 22, 2013 11:26 AM
>> To: Sailesh Panchang <spanchang02@yahoo.com>, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>, james nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com>
>> Cc: 'WCAG' <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, 'Joshue O Connor' <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>, "kirsten@can-adapt.com" <kirsten@can-adapt.com>
>> Subject: RE: Action item: table with TH with and without scope
>> 
>> Just for the record.
>> Interoperability with JAWS should never be used as an indicator of sufficiency.  Determining if sufficient programmatic information is made available via the various mechanisms involved is the determiner--JAWS may use the information or not, but many use other tools for access.  Writing code to any specific AT should imply it is the only solution within a defined environment which does happen, but WCAG is not an environment specific set of techniques.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Sailesh Panchang [mailto:spanchang02@yahoo.com] 
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:19 AM
>> To: David MacDonald; james nurthen
>> Cc: 'WCAG'; 'Joshue O Connor'; kirsten@can-adapt.com
>> Subject: Re: Action item: table with TH with and without scope
>> 
>> James,
>> Yes scope does need to be added to the simplest tables too in certain situations. One such is already in the existing technique for scope. Look at the Contact Us table  where row header is in col#2 and not col#1. 
>> That table is in a page of the Resources link for the technique. 
>> But that is not the subject of the comments being considered by Survey #9 or 11. David M has detailed the problem again.
>> And it
>> Sailesh
>> 
>> --------------------------------------------
>> On Mon, 10/21/13, james nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Subject: Re: Action item: table with TH with and without scope
>> To: "David MacDonald" <david100@sympatico.ca>
>> Cc: "'Sailesh Panchang'" <spanchang02@yahoo.com>, "'WCAG'" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, "'Joshue O Connor'" <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>, kirsten@can-adapt.com
>> Date: Monday, October 21, 2013, 2:28 PM
>> 
>> David,
>> I meant H51 not H63 - sorry.
>> It was my understanding that Sailesh is proposing that scope
>> be added even for the simplest tables. I find this
>> unnecessary. If you take the following example - this works
>> absolutely fine in JAWS and FF. It is only when tables get
>> more complex (i.e. when row and column headers are not in
>> the first column and row of the table) when scope becomes
>> necessary.
>> 
>> <table border="1">
>>   <caption>Contact Information</caption>
>>   <tbody><tr>
>> 
>>     <th>Name</th>
>>     <th>Phone#</th>
>>     <th>Fax#</th>
>>     <th>City</th>
>>   </tr><tr>
>> 
>>     <th>Joel Garner</th>
>>     <td>412-212-5421</td>
>>     <td>412-212-5400</td>
>>     <td>Pittsburgh</td>
>>   </tr><tr>
>> 
>>     <th>Clive Lloyd</th>
>>     <td>410-306-1420</td>
>>     <td>410-306-5400</td>
>>     <td>Baltimore</td>
>>   </tr><tr>
>> 
>>     <th>Gordon Greenidge</th>
>>     <td>281-564-6720</td>
>>     <td>281-511-6600</td>
>>     <td>Houston</td>
>>   </tr>
>> </tbody></table>
>> 
>> Regards,
>> James
>> 
>> 
>> On 10/19/2013 10:10 AM, David MacDonald wrote:
>>> PS
>>> Note, the tweaked table and added h63 test is here:
>>> http://davidmacd.com/test/sailesh-table-test.html
>>> =============
>>> Not sure I understand the question James... I don't
>> think anyone is
>>> proposing this table for any of our techniques... it is
>> simply a test
>>> table...
>>> 
>>> I had several action items.
>>> 1) Check hx in a table
>>> 2) Check what is reported to an API when there are two
>> level of <th>
>>> 3) Check the behaviour with and without the scope
>>> 4) Check what AT reads two layers of table
>> <th>without ids, headers
>>> 
>>> Sailesh produced a table for the tests which I tweaked
>> to make it validate
>>> and tested using my full morning to do so.
>>> I think h63 was a smaller part of the discussion as I
>> understand it.
>>> But just for thoroughness I have done the same test
>> with h63 example code,
>>> and have added it to the page, as well as the results
>> of the testing.
>>> In JAWS the scope is necessary to prevent all the row
>> headers above a row
>>> header from being read hen tabbing into the row header
>> column, and the same
>>> for column headers. This appears to be behaviour just
>> in JAWS and not in
>>> NVDA, or Voice Over.
>>> 
>>> I hope that these tests fulfill my action items, and
>> informs the group
>>> regarding:
>>> 
>>> 1) the outstanding issue of <hx> headings in a
>> table
>>> 2) recommendations about the necessity or non-necessity
>> of scope on simple
>>> tables
>>> 3) the question about two lawyers of headings reading
>> fine in both JAWS and
>>> NVDA without headers and ids
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> David MacDonald
>>> 
>>> CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
>>> Tel:  613.235.4902
>>> http://ca.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100
>>> www.Can-Adapt.com
>>>         Adapting the web to all
>> users
>>>              
>> Including those with disabilities
>>> 
>>> This e-mail originates from CanAdapt Solutions Inc. Any
>> distribution, use or
>>> copying of this e-mail or the information it contains
>> by other than the
>>> intended recipient(s) is unauthorized. If you are not
>> the intended
>>> recipient, please notify me at the telephone number
>> shown above or by return
>>> e-mail and delete this communication and any copy
>> immediately. Thank you.
>>> 
>>> Le présent courriel a été expédié par CanAdapt
>> Solutions Inc. Toute
>>> distribution, utilisation ou reproduction du courriel
>> ou des renseignements
>>> qui s'y trouvent par une personne autre que son
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>>> remercie de votre collaboration.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: James Nurthen [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com]
>>> Sent: October 19, 2013 12:11 PM
>>> To: David MacDonald
>>> Cc: 'Sailesh Panchang'; 'WCAG'; 'Joshue O Connor'; kirsten@can-adapt.com
>>> Subject: Re: Action item: table with TH with and
>> without scope
>>> 
>>> If we are discussing modifying H63 to include scope
>> shouldn't we use a
>>> simpler table than the example (one without these extra
>> H3 cells in the
>>> table)?
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> James
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Oct 19, 2013, at 8:55 AM, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hi Sailesh and all
>>>> 
>>>> I tested the table with NVDA, VoiceOver and Jaws
>> and updated results
>>>> after the tables on the page below.
>>>> http://davidmacd.com/test/sailesh-table-test.ht
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers
>>>> David MacDonald
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Sailesh Panchang [mailto:spanchang02@yahoo.com]
>>>> Sent: October 17, 2013 11:21 PM
>>>> To: WCAG; Joshue O Connor
>>>> Subject: Action item: table with TH with and
>> without scope
>>>> 
>>>> Survey items #9 and 11::
>>>> The comments in May 2013  were primarily
>> influenced because of better
>>>> support for the scope attribute by JAWS and NVDA.
>>>> NVDA 2012 like JAWS read all cells marked up as TH
>> to the left of
>>>> current cell (in column header rows) and all cells
>> marked up as TH
>>>> above current cell for row header cells. (NVDA 2013
>> does not do so
>>>> now) And I was using an older version of FF in
>> April / May.
>>>> Hence changes were suggested to H63 and H51 (survey
>> items 9 and 11.
>>>> This comment was never submitted as a new technique
>> but suggested a
>>>> few changes to the existing technique.
>>>> Representing it as a new technique in the survey is
>> not appropriate.
>>>> For H63 survey item#9: The example refers to a
>> 'published schedule'
>>>> but the code that follows that is a contact info
>> table.
>>>> That contact Info table is from a link of the
>> Resources page for H63.
>>>> Here is a link to tables marked up with TH with and
>> without the scope
>>>> attribute.
>>>> http://mars.dequecloud.com/demo/Table_scopeDemo.htm
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Sailesh
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> * katie *
> 
> Katie Haritos-Shea 
> Section 508 Technical Policy Analyst
> 
> 703-371-5545
> 
> People may forget exactly what it was that you said or did, 
> but they will never forget how you made them feel.......
>

Received on Wednesday, 23 October 2013 08:22:43 UTC