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Re: Action item: table with TH with and without scope

From: Marco Zehe <mzehe@mozilla.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 09:40:09 +0100
Cc: 'WCAG' <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>, 'Joshue O Connor' <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>, "kirsten@can-adapt.com" <kirsten@can-adapt.com>
Message-Id: <B177273B-1E03-43C6-8487-18A7E2EE8F80@mozilla.com>
To: Sailesh Panchang <spanchang02@yahoo.com>
Hi Sailesh,

I raised the visibility of that Firefox bug to the team.

Marco

On Nov 5, 2013, at 5:17 PM, Sailesh Panchang <spanchang02@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Please see use of scope in col#1 for group header cells in 
> http://mars.dequecloud.com/demo/Table-multi-col.htm
> Also see 
> http://community.nvda-project.org/ticket/3245
> As suggested by NVAccess , I submitted a bug for Firefox:
> Mozilla bug submitted June 9, 2013
> 881048 Submitted – Recognizing column headers marked up as TH in a table- improvement needed) – 
> 
> Regards,
> Sailesh
> 
> --------------------------------------------
> On Wed, 10/23/13, Marco Zehe <mzehe@mozilla.com> wrote:
> 
> Subject: Re: Action item: table with TH with and without scope
> To: "Katie Haritos-Shea" <ryladog@earthlink.net>
> Cc: "Hoffman,Allen" <allen.hoffman@hq.dhs.gov>, "Sailesh Panchang" <spanchang02@yahoo.com>, "David MacDonald" <david100@sympatico.ca>, "james nurthen" <james.nurthen@oracle.com>, "'WCAG'" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, "'Joshue O Connor'" <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>, "kirsten@can-adapt.com" <kirsten@can-adapt.com>
> Date: Wednesday, October 23, 2013, 4:22 AM
> 
> FWIW, Firefox uses the scope
> attribute as well to map headers for table cells so NVDA and
> other IA2/ATK clients can take full advantage. Even on
> simple tables, the scope attribute guarantees that Firefox
> knows if a header cell is a row or column header cell. We
> also have heuristics in there that try to determine this
> from other markup, but as with all heuristics, if the table
> markup starts getting crazy, they can fail.
> 
> Marco
> 
> On Oct 23, 2013, at 1:02 AM, Katie Haritos-Shea <ryladog@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
> 
>> I am in violent agreement with Allen on this.
>> 
>> Katie
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: "Hoffman, Allen" <allen.hoffman@hq.dhs.gov>
>>> Sent: Oct 22, 2013 11:26 AM
>>> To: Sailesh Panchang <spanchang02@yahoo.com>,
> David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>,
> james nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com>
>>> Cc: 'WCAG' <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>,
> 'Joshue O Connor' <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>,
> "kirsten@can-adapt.com"
> <kirsten@can-adapt.com>
>>> Subject: RE: Action item: table with TH with and
> without scope
>>> 
>>> Just for the record.
>>> Interoperability with JAWS should never be used as
> an indicator of sufficiency.  Determining if sufficient
> programmatic information is made available via the various
> mechanisms involved is the determiner--JAWS may use the
> information or not, but many use other tools for
> access.  Writing code to any specific AT should imply
> it is the only solution within a defined environment which
> does happen, but WCAG is not an environment specific set of
> techniques.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Sailesh Panchang [mailto:spanchang02@yahoo.com]
> 
>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:19 AM
>>> To: David MacDonald; james nurthen
>>> Cc: 'WCAG'; 'Joshue O Connor'; kirsten@can-adapt.com
>>> Subject: Re: Action item: table with TH with and
> without scope
>>> 
>>> James,
>>> Yes scope does need to be added to the simplest
> tables too in certain situations. One such is already in the
> existing technique for scope. Look at the Contact Us
> table  where row header is in col#2 and not col#1. 
>>> That table is in a page of the Resources link for
> the technique. 
>>> But that is not the subject of the comments being
> considered by Survey #9 or 11. David M has detailed the
> problem again.
>>> And it
>>> Sailesh
>>> 
>>> --------------------------------------------
>>> On Mon, 10/21/13, james nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com>
> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Subject: Re: Action item: table with TH with and
> without scope
>>> To: "David MacDonald" <david100@sympatico.ca>
>>> Cc: "'Sailesh Panchang'" <spanchang02@yahoo.com>,
> "'WCAG'" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>,
> "'Joshue O Connor'" <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>,
> kirsten@can-adapt.com
>>> Date: Monday, October 21, 2013, 2:28 PM
>>> 
>>> David,
>>> I meant H51 not H63 - sorry.
>>> It was my understanding that Sailesh is proposing
> that scope
>>> be added even for the simplest tables. I find this
>>> unnecessary. If you take the following example -
> this works
>>> absolutely fine in JAWS and FF. It is only when
> tables get
>>> more complex (i.e. when row and column headers are
> not in
>>> the first column and row of the table) when scope
> becomes
>>> necessary.
>>> 
>>> <table border="1">
>>>    <caption>Contact
> Information</caption>
>>>    <tbody><tr>
>>> 
>>>      <th>Name</th>
>>>  
>    <th>Phone#</th>
>>>      <th>Fax#</th>
>>>      <th>City</th>
>>>    </tr><tr>
>>> 
>>>      <th>Joel
> Garner</th>
>>>  
>    <td>412-212-5421</td>
>>>  
>    <td>412-212-5400</td>
>>>  
>    <td>Pittsburgh</td>
>>>    </tr><tr>
>>> 
>>>      <th>Clive
> Lloyd</th>
>>>  
>    <td>410-306-1420</td>
>>>  
>    <td>410-306-5400</td>
>>>  
>    <td>Baltimore</td>
>>>    </tr><tr>
>>> 
>>>      <th>Gordon
> Greenidge</th>
>>>  
>    <td>281-564-6720</td>
>>>  
>    <td>281-511-6600</td>
>>>  
>    <td>Houston</td>
>>>    </tr>
>>> </tbody></table>
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> James
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 10/19/2013 10:10 AM, David MacDonald wrote:
>>>> PS
>>>> Note, the tweaked table and added h63 test is
> here:
>>>> http://davidmacd.com/test/sailesh-table-test.html
>>>> =============
>>>> Not sure I understand the question James... I
> don't
>>> think anyone is
>>>> proposing this table for any of our
> techniques... it is
>>> simply a test
>>>> table...
>>>> 
>>>> I had several action items.
>>>> 1) Check hx in a table
>>>> 2) Check what is reported to an API when there
> are two
>>> level of <th>
>>>> 3) Check the behaviour with and without the
> scope
>>>> 4) Check what AT reads two layers of table
>>> <th>without ids, headers
>>>> 
>>>> Sailesh produced a table for the tests which I
> tweaked
>>> to make it validate
>>>> and tested using my full morning to do so.
>>>> I think h63 was a smaller part of the
> discussion as I
>>> understand it.
>>>> But just for thoroughness I have done the same
> test
>>> with h63 example code,
>>>> and have added it to the page, as well as the
> results
>>> of the testing.
>>>> In JAWS the scope is necessary to prevent all
> the row
>>> headers above a row
>>>> header from being read hen tabbing into the row
> header
>>> column, and the same
>>>> for column headers. This appears to be
> behaviour just
>>> in JAWS and not in
>>>> NVDA, or Voice Over.
>>>> 
>>>> I hope that these tests fulfill my action
> items, and
>>> informs the group
>>>> regarding:
>>>> 
>>>> 1) the outstanding issue of <hx> headings
> in a
>>> table
>>>> 2) recommendations about the necessity or
> non-necessity
>>> of scope on simple
>>>> tables
>>>> 3) the question about two lawyers of headings
> reading
>>> fine in both JAWS and
>>>> NVDA without headers and ids
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> David MacDonald
>>>> 
>>>> CanAdapt Solutions Inc.
>>>> Tel:  613.235.4902
>>>> http://ca.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100
>>>> www.Can-Adapt.com
>>>>          Adapting
> the web to all
>>> users
>>>>              
> 
>>> Including those with disabilities
>>>> 
>>>> This e-mail originates from CanAdapt Solutions
> Inc. Any
>>> distribution, use or
>>>> copying of this e-mail or the information it
> contains
>>> by other than the
>>>> intended recipient(s) is unauthorized. If you
> are not
>>> the intended
>>>> recipient, please notify me at the telephone
> number
>>> shown above or by return
>>>> e-mail and delete this communication and any
> copy
>>> immediately. Thank you.
>>>> 
>>>> Le présent courriel a été expédié par
> CanAdapt
>>> Solutions Inc. Toute
>>>> distribution, utilisation ou reproduction du
> courriel
>>> ou des renseignements
>>>> qui s'y trouvent par une personne autre que
> son
>>> destinataire prévu est
>>>> interdite. Si vous avez reçu le message par
> erreur,
>>> veuillez m'en aviser par
>>>> téléphone (au numéro précité) ou par
> courriel,
>>> puis supprimer sans délai la
>>>> version originale de la communication ainsi que
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>>> ses copies. Je vous
>>>> remercie de votre collaboration.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: James Nurthen [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com]
>>>> Sent: October 19, 2013 12:11 PM
>>>> To: David MacDonald
>>>> Cc: 'Sailesh Panchang'; 'WCAG'; 'Joshue O
> Connor'; kirsten@can-adapt.com
>>>> Subject: Re: Action item: table with TH with
> and
>>> without scope
>>>> 
>>>> If we are discussing modifying H63 to include
> scope
>>> shouldn't we use a
>>>> simpler table than the example (one without
> these extra
>>> H3 cells in the
>>>> table)?
>>>> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>> James
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Oct 19, 2013, at 8:55 AM, David MacDonald
> <david100@sympatico.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Sailesh and all
>>>>> 
>>>>> I tested the table with NVDA, VoiceOver and
> Jaws
>>> and updated results
>>>>> after the tables on the page below.
>>>>> http://davidmacd.com/test/sailesh-table-test.ht
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>> David MacDonald
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Sailesh Panchang [mailto:spanchang02@yahoo.com]
>>>>> Sent: October 17, 2013 11:21 PM
>>>>> To: WCAG; Joshue O Connor
>>>>> Subject: Action item: table with TH with
> and
>>> without scope
>>>>> 
>>>>> Survey items #9 and 11::
>>>>> The comments in May 2013  were
> primarily
>>> influenced because of better
>>>>> support for the scope attribute by JAWS and
> NVDA.
>>>>> NVDA 2012 like JAWS read all cells marked
> up as TH
>>> to the left of
>>>>> current cell (in column header rows) and
> all cells
>>> marked up as TH
>>>>> above current cell for row header cells.
> (NVDA 2013
>>> does not do so
>>>>> now) And I was using an older version of FF
> in
>>> April / May.
>>>>> Hence changes were suggested to H63 and H51
> (survey
>>> items 9 and 11.
>>>>> This comment was never submitted as a new
> technique
>>> but suggested a
>>>>> few changes to the existing technique.
>>>>> Representing it as a new technique in the
> survey is
>>> not appropriate.
>>>>> For H63 survey item#9: The example refers
> to a
>>> 'published schedule'
>>>>> but the code that follows that is a contact
> info
>>> table.
>>>>> That contact Info table is from a link of
> the
>>> Resources page for H63.
>>>>> Here is a link to tables marked up with TH
> with and
>>> without the scope
>>>>> attribute.
>>>>> http://mars.dequecloud.com/demo/Table_scopeDemo.htm
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Sailesh
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> * katie *
>> 
>> Katie Haritos-Shea 
>> Section 508 Technical Policy Analyst
>> 
>> 703-371-5545
>> 
>> People may forget exactly what it was that you said or
> did, 
>> but they will never forget how you made them
> feel.......
>> 
> 
> 
> 
Received on Wednesday, 6 November 2013 08:40:40 UTC

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