- From: Avi Arditti <aardit@voa.gov>
- Date: Mon, 03 May 2004 16:26:50 -0400
- To: Richard Ishida <ishida@w3.org>
- Cc: "'John M Slatin'" <john_slatin@austin.utexas.edu>, "'WAI-GL'" <w3c-wai-gl@w3.org>, "'Yvette P. Hoitink'" <y.p.hoitink@heritas.nl>
Yes, thanks -- I knew enough about the requisite etiquette with business cards not to insult anyone (at least not too badly, I hope.) In fact, I find myself doing it with other people's cards, too. Sort of analogous, I suppose, to the benefits of wheelchair ramps extending to people without wheelchairs! Take care, Avi Richard Ishida wrote: > > Most Far Eastern people would feel that way about business cards. Also, > don't stick their cards in your back pocket, or offer them grubby versions > of your own. Best to have little business card holder. After a Japanese > person gives you their card (which you should take with two hands to be > polite and with thanks), you should take a moment to read and even briefly > discuss it, or at least read out or comment on some aspect of the > information. Then, if you are sitting at a table, you will do well to lay > it carefully on the table before you - neatly, and not covered up. > > You might find it interesting to look up some of the many books and articles > covering cultural differences. There's a lot more where these came from... > ;-) > > RI > > ============ > Richard Ishida > W3C > > contact info: > http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/ > > W3C Internationalization: > http://www.w3.org/International/ > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Avi Arditti [mailto:aardit@voa.gov] > > Sent: 03 May 2004 20:05 > > To: Richard Ishida > > Cc: 'John M Slatin'; 'WAI-GL'; 'Yvette P. Hoitink' > > Subject: Re: Disambiguation Re: Verified issues - week of 26 April > > > > OK, I knew this anecdote would come in handy sometime ... > > > > Last month I was at the TESOL (Teachers of English to > > Speakers of Other > > Languages) convention in California, promoting VOA Special > > English. I heard someone say that in certain cultures, people > > do not like to have the back of their business card written > > on by someone else. It is as if an extension of themselves is > > being written on. > > > > Now I don't know who might think this. But it hit me with the > > same surprise as when I first learned that some writers > > purposely avoid getting to the point -- for fear, as you and > > John said, of insulting the reader. I understand that similar > > justification is used for what others would consider > > plagiarism in student writing. That is, to rewrite in one's > > own words is to insult the learned source of the material. > > > > Then there are the cultures that value what others might > > dismiss as flowery writing. > > > > So, for me at least, the more of these insights I collect, > > the more I can fine-tune what I edit or write -- if not to > > make it more appealing to more people, then at least less > > unappealing. > > > > Avi > > > > > > > > > > as a surprise, if not a shock, to people who do not work with > > language (writing, editing or teaching) for a living. > > > > > > Richard Ishida wrote: > > > > > > I had the same problem a few years back while helping a > > Chinese woman > > > studying at Cambridge (UK) check her essays. Her paragraphs > > would lead > > > you towards an idea, but never actually state the point > > clearly before > > > going on to another tack. > > > > > > She was astonished that I was telling her to state the > > point clearly > > > up-front and dot all the I's and cross the T's. She was > > amazed that > > > spelling everything out so clearly wouldn't be insulting to the > > > reader, who she expected would want to play a part in > > reaching the conclusions. > > > > > > RI > > > > > > ============ > > > Richard Ishida > > > W3C > > > > > > contact info: > > > http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/ > > > > > > W3C Internationalization: > > > http://www.w3.org/International/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org > > > > [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of John M Slatin > > > > Sent: 03 May 2004 17:54 > > > > To: Avi Arditti; WAI-GL > > > > Cc: Yvette P. Hoitink > > > > Subject: RE: Disambiguation Re: Verified issues - week of 26 April > > > > > > > > > > > > Interesting and important point, Avi. > > > > > > > > In a writing class I taught about 10 years ago, an Asian > > woman said > > > > something that opened up a whole world of difference for > > me. I had > > > > returned several of her papers with suggestions for getting more > > > > directly to the point. She was clearly very bright, but she just > > > > wouldn't come to the point, no matter what I said, no > > matter how I > > > > marked up sentences, suggested transitions,e tc. Finally > > she told > > > > me that in her culture it was considered rude to come directly to > > > > the > > > > point-- especially for a woman addressing a man. > > > > > > > > And of course there are cases in which speaking clearly and > > > > unambiguously can result in the death of the speaker. > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > > > "Good design is accessible design." > > > > Please note our new name and URL! > > > > John Slatin, Ph.D. > > > > Director, Accessibility Institute > > > > University of Texas at Austin > > > > FAC 248C > > > > 1 University Station G9600 > > > > Austin, TX 78712 > > > > ph 512-495-4288, f 512-495-4524 > > > > email jslatin@mail.utexas.edu > > > > web http://www.utexas.edu/research/accessibility/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Avi Arditti [mailto:aardit@voa.gov] > > > > Sent: Monday, May 03, 2004 11:37 am > > > > To: WAI-GL > > > > Cc: John M Slatin; Yvette P. Hoitink > > > > Subject: Re: Disambiguation Re: Verified issues - week of 26 April > > > > > > > > > > > > To a lot of English speakers, active voice + short sentences = > > > > clarity. > > > > Then, too, to a lot of people, the last time they learned > > to write > > > > was fifth grade (to paraphrase something I heard once.) > > > > > > > > Not all Web authors -- or lawyers or scientists or so on -- are > > > > writers, and not all writers are good communicators. > > Thus, when told > > > > "write clearly," chances are they do not know how, and so > > interpret > > > > that defensively as censorship. > > > > > > > > I have watched online authoring become a dominant topic > > within the > > > > Society for Technical Communication. (In fact, there was a recent > > > > article about WCAG and the group.) The idea is that the > > Web offers > > > > new opportunities for technical writers -- if they could just > > > > convince project managers. > > > > > > > > Writers can find myriad lists of elements that go into "plain > > > > English." > > > > What I have yet to find (maybe I haven't looked enough) is a > > > > collection of similar elements for other languages. For > > example, is > > > > referring to someone directly ("you") considered rude? Is passive > > > > voice preferred to subject-verb-object? Is narrative form better > > > > than vertical lists? > > > > > > > > Multilingual groups like this within W3C seem ideally suited to > > > > generate lists of common plain-language principles to help Web > > > > authors. I would volunteer to compile any submissions for use as, > > > > say, a WCAG appendix item or linked document. > > > > > > > > Avi Arditti > > > > Feature Editor, > > > > VOA Special English > > > > Washington, DC > > > > www.voaspecialenglish.com > > > > > > > > > > > > John M Slatin wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The last sentence in Yvette's list of examples-- > > > > > > > > > > >It's forgotten to take the dog home. > > > > > > > > > > Is not something a native spaker of English would say: > > > > > (1) A native speaker would not use the pronoun "it" to > > refer to a > > > > > person > > > > > (2) A native spaker would not say "It is forgotten to > > take the dog > > > > > home." On the other hand, a native speaker might well say > > > > "It's been > > > > > forgotten," which would expand to "It has been forgotten." > > > > > > > > > > This doesn't mean that a sentence like the one in the examples > > > > > list would never appear on the Web! But the others are > > better examples. > > > > > > > > > > Still, I would agree with Chaals: requiring markup of such > > > > > commonly occurring contractions would make the guidelines appear > > > > unreasonable > > > > > and create resistance. > > > > > > > > > > John > > > > > > > > > > "Good design is accessible design." > > > > > Please note our new name and URL! > > > > > John Slatin, Ph.D. > > > > > Director, Accessibility Institute > > > > > University of Texas at Austin > > > > > FAC 248C > > > > > 1 University Station G9600 > > > > > Austin, TX 78712 > > > > > ph 512-495-4288, f 512-495-4524 > > > > > email jslatin@mail.utexas.edu > > > > > web http://www.utexas.edu/research/accessibility/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org > > > > [mailto:w3c-wai-gl-request@w3.org] On > > > > > Behalf Of Yvette P. Hoitink > > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2004 3:02 pm > > > > > To: 'WAI-GL' > > > > > Subject: RE: Disambiguation Re: Verified issues - week > > of 26 April > > > > > > > > > > Chaals asked: > > > > > > > > > > > > The Web > > > > > > >Content Accessibility Guidelines 2.0 will be laughed out of > > > > > > town if it > > > > > > >even flirts with the idea of forcing us to use markup like > > > > > > ><span title="it has">it's</span>. > > > > > > > > > > > > Do you have 5 examples of "it's" which mean "it has", please? > > > > > > > > > > It's been a great effort to create 5 examples. It's > > gotten to the > > > > > point where it's succeeded. It's meant that the dog remained in > > > > > the mall. The puppy was left behind, it's forgotten. It's owner > > > > > was an eleven year old child. It's forgotten to take > > the dog home. > > > > > > > > > > The last three sentences show three different meanings > > of "it's". > > > > > Especially "it's forgotten" may mean either it has > > > > forgotten (active) > > > > > or it is forgotten (passive) which can't always be > > resolved from > > > > > context. > > > > > > > > > > Yvette Hoitink > > > > > Heritas, Enschede, the Netherlands > > > > > E-mail: y.p.hoitink@heritas.nl > > > > > WWW: http://www.heritas.nl > > > > > >
Received on Monday, 3 May 2004 16:27:24 UTC