Re: Minutes from 16 November 2000 WCAG WG telecon

Sean,

	It's not necessary to keep repeating examples you have already sent to the
list. If they had been an adequate explanation, I wouldn't have continued
to raise the question. 

>     It is a violation of SGML to specify markup for presentation: end of
>story.

Not really. I've been making web pages since HTML 1.0, what is SGML and why
is what they say significant? If I don't use SGML, but use HTML, why should
a violation of SGML affect my work? 

Maybe it's well to start with what specifically constitutes mark-up. Use of
Bold, Italic and Underline, plus "different" color and "different" fonts,
all used as visusal aids. Does it include linking a word to its definition
and/or to a URL with broader information? Is there anything else? I'm not
convinced that <hr> belongs in this category, since it contributes to
structure rather than comprehension... 

At present, all these things can be done in HTML very nicely and easily.
You put the emphasis where it is needed as you read through the document
seeing where it is useful and balancing so that only a few such elements
appear on the screen at a time. Enter, CSS. After you've decided where to
mark-up, instead of just leaving it in HTML, you must now also add it to
another piece of code. Why? Why can't the alternate outputs just read these
variables in HTML and act like the style sheet does?  

>"SGML purists would assert that HTML, in particular early HTML, does not
>rigorously implement all the SGML principles for example, hierarchical
>structure and elimination of presentation-specific markup from a
>ocument"  -

The thoughts of purists aren't my concern, accessibility is. When
accessibility is used to advance "purists" principles, it's being misused. 

>"When writing an SGML document, the author identifies the document part
>(title, procedure list, footnote) and provides its content. They don't say
>what that part will look like; that is defined separately, and typically by
>someone else. The writer doesn't waste time in what the text looks like." -
>http://www.mulberrytech.com/papers/whatsgml.html

This seems to presume that web pages are created by teams, with the writer
assigned one task, and "someone" else does the rest. Arggghhh. Using such
authoring tools as Word, Front Page and Publisher allows the author to do
the tasks of the whole team. Word and Front Page include "mark-up"
capabilities but are limited in how they handle graphics. Publisher needs
to be polished in Front Page to insure all accessibility features are
there. I use these tools because they are commonly available and can be
easily taught to teachers who need to make usable pages. The page I created
last week to enable students and teachers to use a single page as access to
what is currently needed in the lab. If you want to look at it and suggest
what more could be accomplished by adding CSS to this page with a very
limited use/audience, it's at http://www.geocities.com/apembert45 ... 

Have you looked at the new accessibility tools for Dreamweaver at
http://www.macromedia.com/accessibility/ ?

>Why do people think it is so hard to write a structural XHTML document and
>then apply the style afterwards. Hey, if I can learn to do it, I'm pretty
>sure that anyone can!

Everyone has their own working style. Some pages are best if the visual
effect is planned first, then add the text to round it out. And many folks
who make occassional web pages which may or may not have a "universal"
audience, may choose not to add to what they already have to learn. 

>Does this make any more sense now?
>> >      Guideline 2. Separate content and structure from
>> >      presentation and explicitly define significant structural
>> >      or semantic distinctions in markup or in a data model.
>> >    - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/

Perhaps it would say it better if it said that to simply define significant
structural and comprehension aides in markup. I've no clue what "data
model" adds to the guideline. CSS is one way to achieve that goal. HTML is
another. Neither currently serves a "universal" audience. 

				Anne
Anne L. Pemberton
http://www.pen.k12.va.us/Pav/Academy1
http://www.erols.com/stevepem/Homeschooling
apembert@crosslink.net
Enabling Support Foundation
http://www.enabling.org

Received on Sunday, 19 November 2000 10:52:38 UTC