- From: Dick Brown <dickb@microsoft.com>
- Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 17:26:12 -0700
- To: w3c-wai-gl@w3.org
- Message-ID: <7D6F5C23B8944046BC8D1DDED0ED15E01D81DD@red-pt-02.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
Here's what I got down today. I know I missed some discussion (of which there was plenty), but I hope I got most. Please send corrections, etc. And I'm assuming Wendy can post to the site. Dick Brown 20 July 2000 WCAG WG Telecon Summary of action items and resolutions In progress: Action Marshall: send e-mail to DB re: how MSN creates pages for mobile devices. DB has forwarded to MSN Mobile team and is awaiting response. Action KHS and WC take screen shots for CSS doc. KHS sent screen shots to WC. Resolved: Send techniques document out ASAP. Participants Katie Haritos-Shea Charles McCathieNevile Jason White Dick Brown Andi Snow-Weaver Marti McCuller Marshall Jansen William Loughborough Marja-Riitta Koivunen Gregg Vanderheiden Regrets Gregory Rosmaita Wendy Chisholm Agenda Action items (brief review). Guidelines: further discussion of the draft that was submitted last week. It needs to be developed and improved. Concrete proposals are welcome. Is this the direction in which the guidelines should be moving? Techniques document: review by interest group and status of changes approved during last week's meeting. Any additional issues or concerns which are raised on the mailing list prior to the meeting. JW: Let's change agenda to discuss techniques first. Consensus to send techniques doc ASAP. JW: Will ask Danielle about whether it is still an issue. (DB: In taking minutes I didn't get what the issue is.) ASW: Is it our intent to prioritize and guidelines level or checkpoint level? JW: Largely still an open question. I suspect solution lies in concretizing and improving general principles and guidelines first. JW: At the checkpoint level it's technology-specific. CMN: I'd like to suggest we use guideline-checkpoint mapping we use in WCAG 1, rather than what we call in WCAG 2, principles. JW: I should explain that my choice of terminology was based upon some confusion which has surrounded the term checkpoint in the past 6 months or so. That there's been a tendency to speak in terms of technology-specific checkpoints. I thought to reserve checkpoint for tech-specific, and use principles and guidelines for higher-level. I think there's a real terminological problem here. WL: The idea is that there are going to be two levels of non-tech sp stuff, one of which is either called principles or guidelines, the other called guidelines or checkpoints. There would be a third level above all of those (which is now) called principles. We will work on the third level no matter what we call it. JW: We can leave that (the terminology) as an issue for subsequent discussions. JW: There's been discussion on the list about the principles and guidelines. BL: I want to re-propose that the language of the principles is included somewhere where that can be dealt with without having to look at anything else. KHS: People were talking about the White House Site. There is a table there that is just that kind of stuff. JW: One issue is that the exact number of these top-level requirements and their substance is partly a matter of convenience, because it would be quite possible to reduce it down to one or two, but that would lose its explanatory value. But we don't want to have too many of them. WL: But that they ultimately will have subheadings, etc. need not concern us at this time. The important thing is to make sure the general points encompass everything we want. KHS: It's useful to have four things you can count on your fingers. They do have to be put broadly. JW: Use a very small number of new terms precisely, terms that would be defined in the document. JW: To move to the concrete: We've had some debate about #1, regarding modality independence. Some healthy discussion on the list. WL: I'll put mine up: There's four. I dropped two and tersified all of them: From WL mail to list: Separate content and structure from presentation; capture semantics with markup. Permit user modifications of default presentations. Design user interfaces for device independence. Assure content availability across sensory modalities. MM: Each one of them should be followed by a paragraph of explanation. JW: #2 doesn't mandate that the author provide a default presentation. DB: There may not be a default presentation 2 years from now. JW: Need to pay attention to one or more of the ways a UA could present it. Provide some kind of style sheet, whatever, the markup language requires so it can be presented WL: The distinction between the author and whoever puts up a Web site is going to be blurred. The idea of a default presentation is very close to nonexistent. DB: In the ideal XML world, there would be a big stream of data going to devices that present it per user desires. JW: (For the foreseeable future) There will be an attempt by the creator of the information to present the data in one or more sensory modalities. MJ: Big sites make it look like marketing wants it, then there's small site owners who use FrontPage or DreamWeaver are going to make it look good on their computer and there won't be a big data stream. WL: No, but 90 percent of the Web development may. MM: We also have the situation of the govt who has the idea that forms must look exactly like they are supposed to and aren't going to give that up. CMN: They already have to deal with the fact that doesn't work in the real world. WL: Currently a PR war between two US presidential candidates about having made their sites accessible. JW: Content needs to be provided in a format that can be rendered by user agents. Or, provider of the content also has to provide the infrastructure (style sheets, etc.) that allow presentations to be constructed at the client end. WL: What if I say "if any" after default. CMN: I think we're talking about author-supplied (data). Needs to be subject to user override. JW: I suggested changing default presentations to default presentations. JW: Is it appropriate to just suggest data with some markup and require user agent (to format, etc.). CMN: Instances where you don't need to supply along with your content any rendering information. (DB: not sure if I minuted this correctly.) Consensus: "Permit user modifications of author-supplied presentations, if any." JW: Then the text would have to explain the circumstance under which author would have to supply presentations or it wouldn't be presented at the other end. JW: We seem to have agreed on modality independence. WL: There is a 4th domain: navigation. It's not the structure of the content or the presentation. Navigation is a separate concept. JW: (In the draft I wrote) I actually put navigation and comprehension together. WL: The reason I dropped comprehension, simplify, etc... I think that's too general. (GV joined) WL: Were discussing navigation be added to the triumvirate of content, structure and presentation. WL: Navigation can be completely separate and imposed, like a site map. MM: Probably be more so with Web phones and Palm pilots and such. GV: Some of these things are orthogonal, not parallel. The way you structure a document is how you navigate it, in some respects. WL. One of the things I mean is that there are bits put into Web sites, that are navigational entities, that are unrelated semantically to the content. MRK: So the site navigation? JW: Does navigation need separate general guidelines? WL: Probably not. MRK: I think navigation is really important. MM: If you can't get to the page, it doesn't matter how it's presented. GV: The problem we're trying to address it that when you use presentation to indicate content, or use it to indicate structure, or use it to identify navigation, you create a problem for people who cannot perceive that presentation. Perhaps better worded: Do not use presentation to convey semantics meaning, to indicate structure or to identify navigation. Use proper markup, not presentation. JW: The question is whether there are requirements for navigation or whether they should be understood as consequences of the requirements for proper presentation and content. CMN: The structure needs to be specific, everything else can derive from that. CMN: So links and navigation elements are part of the structure of a page. So the cons of separating presentation from structure... UA can then say, these things are neatly separated... so make available what has been separated out. Linking is just one of those. JW: Web allows links to be created in and between resources. So to that degree, one could be justified in speaking of link requirements as separate. Or they could be part of separating content from presentation. WL: I agree... there does not need to be a separate reference to navigation. It's already covered (under structure). (MJ left call.) JW: (Citing his proposal about separating presentation from content.) GV: You don't want any semantic distinctions to be distinguished via presentation... MRK: ...alone. JW: Structure and semantic distinctions must be conveyed in markup or data model or whatever. Presentation alone should not be used to communicate signify structure. GV: Need good phrasing for all this. GV: The content and structure should be derivable from unformatted text and markup (or data structure). So the focus is from unformatted text and markup you get all the information you need. The call was adjourned after the group agreed to pursue wording for these issues on the list.
Received on Thursday, 20 July 2000 20:27:23 UTC