- From: Robin Cover <robin@ACADCOMP.SIL.ORG>
- Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:57:23 -0500 (CDT)
- To: w3c-sgml-wg@w3.org
- Cc: robin@ACADCOMP.SIL.ORG
Jean Paoli wrote: <q> Proposal: I'm going to say something radical here: We should invent a way to add structure and attributes to attributes. A special character sequence "<*" in an opening tag (the exact characters used are to-be-determined) signals that the contents are an attribute, not a subdivision. </q> (I would like to see the remainder of the "SD2 - Structured Attributes:" document, which appears truncated.) Jean is not the only one who thinks (apparently ?) that SGML's notion of "attribute" is deficient. I have heard people saying this for a decade, and I have hit the wall with SGML attributes many times myself. I sense that others in the XML working group may not have the inclination to address this topic head-on in the context of XML's "Structured Data" design discussion, but I think it deserves to be considered at some point within the larger framework of the SGML revision. To me, it makes sense to say that the markup model for an element (representing a [real world] Object) is plausibly the same model as for an attribute (representing a [real world] attribute) *ONLY* if we claim that there are no significant differences between real world "objects" and "attributes" which are worthy of being modeled in our information representation metalanguages. That is: one might claim that an XML element "content model" definition can be the same as an XML "attribute definition" because there are no fundamental (and significant) differences between objects and attributes. Is this so? In this respect, it's not clear to me that the (common) strategy of privately declaring some GI namespace for (real) "attributes" masquerading as "elements", or a reserved instance markup syntax like <*color>... is the correct solution. If objects and attributes have significantly different attribute structure, then these conceptual model differences should be reflected in the metalanguage. Objects do not "contain" attributes, for starters. As I understand the problem, it finds evidence most clearly in situations where one wishes to model complex structured information for which semantic relations are critical to the conceptual model. That is, to point out why the XML "solution" illustrated in Liam Quin's note is less than ideal requires the observation that SGML/XML validation on the information itself is thereby surrendered. Lee said: > -------------------------------------------------- Consider <percy> <attribute> <name>Socks</name> <value> <colour>red</colour> <material>cotton<material> </value> </attribute> <content> whatever you want </content> </percy> > -------------------------------------------------- and of course this works, so long as one does not care that we might countenance an instance with: <colour>fermented warm arsenic</colour>. A common response ("let's say it all together, now, class: ...") is the reminder that SGML intends *not* to provide any facility for the expression of primitive relational semantics or data types, noting that even the 16 or so "declared values" for SGML attributes are an anomaly in this regard. Fine. But in the real world modeling of information, semantics is pretty important. The ID - IDREF mechanism is so weak semantically as to be almost useless, but not completely so when one contemplates the alternative: <section><id>sec1</id>... ... <xref><target>sec1</target>See Section One</xref> I can't prove that Jean's concern is relevant for XML -- if we say that XML is primarily for representing "displayable (surface) text" that is delivered over the Internet. I think it is relevant if we think of XML as a "better SGML" in terms of its ability to represent information (structure). I always thought that "information" was what SGML was all about. A document conceived as "text characters to be displayed" may be able to embrace a model of "attribute" that is as weak as SGML's model is; a document conceived as an abstract (but projected) object having a rich and multidimensional information structure may require a more complex notion of "attribute," and ideally, one that is defined clearly enough to support validation on attribute values. Tilting at windmills again, probably. If I could ever forge these ideas more cogently into a paper, it might be entitled: "Strings are not enough." I hope others agree, even if they think XML is not the time or place to do something about it. **Apologies if I have misunderstood or misrepresented Jean's concern for attribute structure (complex attributes). -Robin Reference: Alexander Borgida, "Features Of Languages For The Development Of Information Systems At The Conceptual Level," IEEE Software 2/1 (January 1985) 63-72 (with 17 references). See further the <a href="http://www.sil.org/sgml/bib-ab.html#borgidaCML">Borgida</a> bibliographic entry for other details, and links to an online version of the article. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Robin Cover Email: robin@acadcomp.sil.org 6634 Sarah Drive Dallas, TX 75236 USA >>> The SGML Web Page <<< Tel: +1 (972) 296-1783 (h) http://www.sil.org/sgml/sgml.html Tel: +1 (972) 708-7346 (w) FAX: +1 (972) 708-7380 =========================================================================
Received on Friday, 16 May 1997 14:02:28 UTC