- From: pat hayes <phayes@ai.uwf.edu>
- Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 20:14:52 -0500
- To: Graham Klyne <Graham.Klyne@Baltimore.com>
- Cc: w3c-rdfcore-wg@w3.org
>>>It seems to me that there is a difference in the treatment of URIs
>>>used to label nodes and URIs used to label arcs, but I'm not sure
>>>how that is formalized. I used to think of reification as
>>>providing a way to create an effect that might have a graph syntax
>>>of an arc pointing to/from another arc.
>>
>>I don't think you need to involve reification at all; but then I
>>may just be completely confused about what RDF reification means.
>
>I guess the difference is that I saw the arc, the thing pointed
>to/from, as the statement <s p o>, where taking on board your note
>above it could be viewed as the pair <s o> in the relational
>extension of p.
Yes, but if you check the MT for asserted triples, that *is* the
meaning of the statement <s p o>.
>
>>>In any case, I think it's certainly possible to have the uri that
>>>labels a property arc also be used to label a node that is the
>>>subject and/or object of another property, which some might say is
>>>"to have a property be the value of another property".
>>
>>Yes, that is OK. No need to change the MT (or the graph syntax) to
>>allow this. I will put a short note into the MT document to draw
>>attention to this.
>
>Let's see if I get it right: a URI used as an arc label, the arc
>denotes a member of the property node's relational extension. When
>used as a node label, the node denotes the property itself.
Right. Neat, huh?
>?
>
>>>Should arcs be allowed to be "princeNodes"?
>>>
>>>I note that allowing property arcs to be "princeNodes" is not the
>>>same as having ordinary nodes be princeNodes. A URI denotes a
>>>node resource, but it is an attribute of a property arc. How does
>>>a formalization capture this kind of distinction?
>>
>>Not sure I follow that distinction. ("attribute" ?)
>
>I was trying to express that the arc is qualified, not identified,
>by the label applied to it.
Oh, because another arc can have the same label? Right. I tend to
hink of that as a matter of syntax, though.
>
>(Hmmm... does it make sense to talk of the pair <s o> in the
>relational extension of p as distinct from an isolated pair <s o>?)
I hope not :-)
>
>>>I have also found that to describe RDF-schema-based inferences, I
>>>have wanted to construct expressions in which the RDF property is
>>>a "variable". I think the required effect could be achieved by
>>>means other than "princeNode" arcs, but maybe less intuitive for a
>>>developer.
>>
>>Yes, others have noted this also. OK, this also can be allowed in
>>the syntax without changing the MT; but I think that if we do allow
>>this then I ought to rewrite the model theory slightly, because as
>>it stands right now its not quite clear what this would mean. The
>>MT uses a standard logical device to describe existentials,
>>basically saying that the existential is true if there is some
>>interpretation of what it denotes that makes the assertion true.
>>The trouble with this trick for relations (properties) is, that the
>>simple denotation of a property isn't really all that important:
>>what makes assertions involving it true or false are the
>>*extensions* of those denotations. So a lot turns on whether those
>>extensions are allowed to change when the denotation of the
>>anonymous node is allowed to change. The only way to interpret this
>>that would produce a reasonable proof theory would be to take the
>>extension mappings as fixed and let just the denotations vary;
>>which is what the MT says right now, in fact, but it ought to say
>>it much more clearly and explicitly, since a lot hangs on that
>>point if we are going to allow princeProperties.
>>
>>>(Hmmm... are we finding out why CGs use bipartite graphs rather
>>>than labelled arcs?)
>>
>>Maybe, but we can go with the more liberal syntax. CGs are based on
>>a slightly more traditional logic which doesn't have explicit
>>extension mappings and doesn't allow properties to apply to other
>>properties.
>
>I realized later that my thinking there was wrong, in that the
>bipartite graph's purpose seems to be to allow n-ary relations to be
>expressed. I think your comment about extension mappings is more to
>the point.
>
>But, having only binary relations may make it easier to introduce
>the "other means": I was thinking of something like the device
>"Holds(property, subject, object)".
Yes. You can actually derive the property/extension trick by starting
with this and thinking of Holds as a (binary) relation between
property and the pair (subject,object), and that is then the
extension mapping IEXT; so the two ideas are definitely related.
(Doesnt work quite the same for more than 3 arguments, though :-)
Pat
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Received on Monday, 10 September 2001 21:13:24 UTC