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Updated RDFCore 13Jul Minutes

From: Aaron Swartz <me@aaronsw.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 17:40:40 -0500 (CDT)
To: <w3c-rdfcore-wg@w3.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.33.0107161733430.3647-400000@localhost>
These minutes include the updates and corrections that I've received over
the past few days. The N3 version is definitive, as all the rest are
automatically generated from it.

 - Aaron

Minutes of a meeting held 2001-07-13

W3C RDFCore Working Group[1]
Previous: 2001-07-06[2] (archive[3])

*Minutes 2001-07-13

*Present:* Brian McBride[4] (Chair), Dave Beckett[5], Bill dehOra[6],
Jos De Roo[7], Graham Klyne[8], Ora Lassila[9], Frank Manola[10],
Stephen Petschulat[11], Aaron Swartz[12] (Scribe), Mike Dean[13], Pat
Hayes[14], Sergey Melnik[15]

Regrets: Dan Brickley[16], Eric Miller[17], Art Barstow[18], Dan
Connolly[19], Jan Grant[20], Martyn Horner[21], Yoshiyuki Kitahara[22]
, Satoshi Nakamura[23]

Absent: Frank Boumphrey[24], Ron Daniel[25], Rael Dornfest[26],
Michael Kopchenov[27], Pierre G. Richard[28], R. V. Guha[29]


- REVIEW MINUTES OF MEETING on 6th July 2001[30]
- Formalizing N-Triples (5 mins)[35]
- re: ACTION 2001-06-08#2: (5 mins)[36]
- Preparing for the f2f: (10 minutes)[37]
- Review status of #rdfms-identity-anon-resources (15 mins)[38]
- Review status of #rdfms-xmllang (10 mins)[39]
- Adjournment[40]


See also: Meeting Transcript[41]

*** REVIEW MINUTES OF MEETING on 6th July 2001

Minutes, as written by Jan Grant, are approved.

- * RESOLVED: *<
is approved as a fair record of the meeting.


Frank has an item about the DAML Joint Committee's submission to the
working group which we agreed to address early in the meeting.


- * DONE Jan Grant[43]: *generate use cases and requirements for
language (xml:lang) and literals
- * DONE Dan Brickley[44]: *write up decision to allow partial
descriptions of containers up in more detail for the list


- * ACTION Ora Lassila[45]: *send a note to the WG that describes how
aboutEach is being used and how it was implemented
- * DONE Brian McBride[46]: *Brian to get in touch with Ora about
- * ACTION Dan Brickley[47]: *Get a draft of RDFSchema to the group.
- * ACTION Dan Brickley[48]: *write test cases for the RDF schema
issues that are impacted by literals-as-resources.
- * ACTION Sergey Melnik[49]: *review the other issues and report
which are impacted by a decision on literals-as-resources


The Working Group acknowledged receipt of the DAML coordination
document (@@link) and agreed to send a response to DAML. Frank Manola
was assigned an action to draft an assesment of the document and
describe how it fits in with the issues we're discussing. Brian
McBride was assigned an action to inform the DAML Committee of our
receipt of their message and let them know that we hope to have a more
detailed response by the end of the month.

- * ACTION Brian McBride[50]: *Acknowledge receipt of Coordination
points between RDF(S) and DAML+OIL[51]
- * ACTION Frank Manola[52]: *Draft an assessment of Coordination
points between RDF(S) and DAML+OIL[53]

*** Formalizing N-Triples (5 mins)

The Working Group agreed that <
http://purl.org/net/dajobe/2001/06/ntriples/[54]> would become the
official definition of N-Triples. Brian thought it would be likely
that it would be a key part of the spec. The intention is to keep the
format and document updated as we continue to define the abstract
syntax. Dave Beckett and Art Barstow will meet to decide who will
maintain the document. The document will be moved into W3C webspace
with the proper copyright notice, etc.

- * RESOLVED: *N-Triples[55] is accepted as the official definition of
- * ACTION Dave Beckett[56]: *Meet with Art Barstow to decide who will
maintain N-Triples[57]

*** re: ACTION 2001-06-08#2: (5 mins)

It was agreed that we would link <
[58]> from the issues list. Next week we will decide whether to accept
it as an issue resolution.

- * ACTION All Members[59]: *Review <

*** Preparing for the f2f: (10 minutes)

Sergey Melnik sent <
[61]> with a proposed ordering of topics for the Working Group to
focus on, which people mostly agreed upon. However, there is also the
issue of scope which we weren't all clear where to place in our
priorities. All of the items are expensive topics but this first-cut
summary should help us.

Brian sent <
[62]> proposing the summarization and dividing the open issues into
two groups. The top half are ones we should focus on, since they
affect the abstract syntax. Everyone should speak up if they have
other issues which they feel are important. Sergey raised the issue of
namespaces which he volunteered to own.

It was also agreed that a model theory would help us answer questions.
Pat Hayes volunteered to provide an incomplete strawman to give us a
focus for discussion. Sergey pointed out that issues of terminology
were also important, and might hamper progress on a model theory. Pat
Hayes felt that both could proceed in parallel and help progress with
the other. There was general agreement on this point.

Graham Klyne reminded the Working Group of <
[63]> which he began to put together back on RDF Interest.

Aaron pointed out that the model theory should not try and take the
place of answering the questions raised by the issues. Pat hayes
agreed, saying that the model theory is a mathematical sandbox to
focus the questions and try out the answers.

- * ACTION Brian McBride[64]: *Send out a message asking people to
register at <
- * ACTION Brian McBride[66]: *Open the issues of namespaces with
Sergey as owner
- * ACTION Pat Hayes[67]: *Produce a strawman model theory for RDF

*** Review status of #rdfms-identity-anon-resources (15 mins)

Brian explained that he wanted to begin reviewing issues with high
priority to see if we could come to some sort of resolution. Graham
Klyne summarized that he though there was some progress based on his
recent exchange with Frank Manola, but he was especially curious if
Dan Connolly had any comments. He felt that he had narrowed the issue
down by dismissing query as out of scope that left only the question
of what were the semantics of an anonymous resource. Pat thought that
dismissing query may not be well accepted by many. Graham said he
would wait until someone raised the issue. Frank Manola suggested
query might need to go into the M&S while Pat Hayes suggested the
document might have explicit warnings against common
misunderstandings, something the DAML group plans to do. Frank
suggested two major approaches: 1) recognize that people might use RDF
in a query context but leave others to specify the semantics for that
situation or 2) do the extension ourselves. Graham said he felt that
the current spec uses anonymous resources to say 'there exists
something with these properties'. In response to a question from Jos
de Roo, he clarified that there could be more than one thing and
referred to <
[68]> (?) for more precise wording. He felt that it really came down
to two choices: 1) a form of skolemization -- generating IDs for
anonymous resources or 2) introducing a more explicit scoped variable.
He felt there were problems each way: with (1) the question was how to
generate the ID, with (2) it was how to scope something in the
abstract syntax. Brian pointed out that the rdfms-graph issue might
provide a URI for an RDF graph, and thus might help in this area.
Brian asked whether the IDs generated by skolemization would be
distinguishable from normal URIs. Graham felt they would not
necessarily be distinguishable, but that he wasn't sure about it. He
said he didn't have a strong view on the issue but was leaning towards
scoped variables. Jos de Roo commented that the scope for these
variables could be the document itself, which he felt N-Triples made
quire clear with its _:anonnode syntax. Graham felt that problems
could arise when documents were combined and though you really need a
way of capturing boundaries within the abstract syntax. Frank Manola
wondered if this was a syntactic exercise or a more substantial
function of merging graphs, bringing up the example of logical
statements. Pat Hayes said that in logic you had to rename variables
when you merged documents but said he thought that's what URIs were
supposed to do.

- * ACTION Frank Manola[69]: *Clarify the choices for anonymous
resources with some of their ramifications
- * ACTION Pat Hayes[70]: *Provide his point of view on anonymous
- * ACTION Graham Klyne[71]: *Summarize the proposals on anonymous
resources from Frank, Pat, and any others
- * ACTION Brian McBride[72]: *Provide a writeup about the use of
anonymous resources by his colleagues
- * ACTION All Members[73]: *Submit any anonymous resource use cases
that you feel are important

*** Review status of #rdfms-xmllang (10 mins)

Brian sent a summary of use cases late last night. He felt that M&S
was quite clear on how a literal should be represented. He presented
his summary saying that Jan Grant implemented it the way M&S described
and preferred that. Martyn Horner found that they modeled language
using anonymous resources and didn't use the M&S way. Eric Miller
provided a similar use case, but we could not determine whether the
M&S met his needs. He also raised some questions: Do we understand
what M&S says about xml:lang? The answer seemed to be yes. Is what M&S
describes broken - is there some fatal flaw that must be fixed? Pat
Hayes felt that clearly not, since some have implemented it. Aaron
Swartz raised that Tim Berners-Lee and Dan Connolly felt it was broken
and thought we shouldn't go on without their feedback. Graham
suggested three possible ways to do things: 1) Define literals as
complex entities with a language property; 2) model it in the graph;
3) adopt both - let the market decide or let a thousand flowers bloom.
Pat Hayes thought that this would lead to contradictions and
inconsistencies. Brian volunteered to do a writeup of the pros and
cons of the alternatives.

- * ACTION Brian McBride[74]: *Followup with Eric Miller on whether
M&S's model of xml:lang meets the needs of his usecase
- * ACTION Brian McBride[75]: *Writeup the pros and cons of various
xml:lang alternatives

*** Adjournment

Pat Hayes raised that next week was the DAML PI meeting and DAML folks
might not be able to attend. Brian said he would keep that in mind
when writing the agenda.

- * RESOLVED: *to meet again one week hence


Aaron Swartz[76] , scribe for Brian McBride[77] , chair; not yet
reviewed by the participants
formatting with minutes2html.xsl,v 1.3 + additions by AaronSw[78]; see
RDF meeting records[79]

[1] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/
[2] mid:Pine.GSO.4.31.0107081423510.15253-100000@mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk
[3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Jul/0052.html
[4] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#brian_mcbride
[5] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#beckett
[6] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#bdehora
[7] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#deroo
[8] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#Klyne
[9] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#lassila
[10] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#fmanola
[11] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#spetschu
[12] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#aswartz
[13] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#mdean
[14] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#phayes
[15] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#melnik
[16] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#danbri
[17] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#em
[18] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#barstow
[19] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#connolly
[20] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#grant
[21] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#horner
[22] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#ykitahara
[23] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#snakamura
[24] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#frank
[25] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#rdaniel
[26] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#rael
[27] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#mkopchenov
[28] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#pgr
[29] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#guha
[30] #N417
[31] #N1025
[32] #N1035
[33] #N984
[34] #N333
[35] #N272
[36] #N1158
[37] #N670
[38] #N619
[39] #N378
[40] #N789
[41] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2001Jul/0013.html
[42] mid:Pine.GSO.4.31.0107081423510.15253-100000@mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk
[43] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#grant
[44] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#danbri
[45] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#lassila
[46] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#brian_mcbride
[47] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#danbri
[48] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#danbri
[49] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#melnik
[50] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#brian_mcbride
[51] http://www.daml.org/2001/07/RDFS-DAML+OIL-coordination.html
[52] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#fmanola
[53] http://www.daml.org/2001/07/RDFS-DAML+OIL-coordination.html
[54] http://purl.org/net/dajobe/2001/06/ntriples/
[55] http://purl.org/net/dajobe/2001/06/ntriples/
[56] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#beckett
[57] http://purl.org/net/dajobe/2001/06/ntriples/
[58] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Jul/0039.html
[59] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#all
[60] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Jul/0039.html
[61] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Jul/0033.html
[62] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Jul/0072.html
[64] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#brian_mcbride
[65] http://cgi.w3.org/Register/selectUser.pl?_w3c_meetingName=RDFCOREF2F
[66] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#brian_mcbride
[67] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#phayes
[68] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2001Jul/0124.html
[69] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#fmanola
[70] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#phayes
[71] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#Klyne
[72] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#brian_mcbride
[73] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#all
[74] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#brian_mcbride
[75] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#brian_mcbride
[76] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#aswartz
[77] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/RDFCore/members#brian_mcbride
[78] http://www.aaronsw.com
[79] http://www.w3.org/2000/11/mr76/

Received on Monday, 16 July 2001 19:22:21 UTC

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