- From: Abraham Bernstein <bernstein@ifi.uzh.ch>
- Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 03:21:45 +0100
- To: Lloyd Rutledge <Lloyd.Rutledge@cwi.nl>
- Cc: Max Wilson <mlw05r@ecs.soton.ac.uk>, "<editor@content-wire.com>" <editor@content-wire.com>, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>, paola.dimaio@gmail.com, emmanuelle@sidar.org, "T.Heath" <T.Heath@open.ac.uk>, SW-forum Web <semantic-web@w3.org>, public-semweb-ui@w3.org
There is also a User Interaction session at the main conference... Best Avi Lloyd Rutledge wrote: > > Another gathering point for this discussion could be the at or aronnd the > tutorial tomorrow (Sunday) on "User Centered Design for the Semantic Web" > <http://www.dfki.de/~jameson/iswc07-tutorial/>. > > -Lloyd > > Max Wilson wrote: >> This swuiwiki.webscience.org, which is a great place to output any >> user based BOF discussion at ISWC this year, has a managed editor >> list but is free to view by anyone. Contact details for getting an >> editor account are on the front page. Roberto, and now Paola, along >> with many some now have accounts. >> >> Max Wilson >> >> On 10 Nov 2007, at 09:51, <editor@content-wire.com >> <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>> <editor@content-wire.com >> <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>> wrote: >> >>> >>> Ivan and all >>> me too leaving soon and still working on my reservations, >>> shutingdown in a few minutes... >>> >>> Preliminary list of issues on the fly: >>> >>> 1. New semantic web tools are being released (primarily RDF based >>> but Ontology editors and othe semantic technologiesr too) that look >>> as if they are promising and useful but little or no 'usability >>> good practices' is in place to make such applications useful to >>> those who have never seen one before (ie the majority of the >>> intended users) >>> >>> People (non developers) dont know >>> a) what to do with theb >>> b) how to do it >>> >>> 2. you can look at all the usability issues that once existed about >>> web 1.0, great advances have been made there in term >>> of internet usability/accessibility, so that now even grandparents >>> can manage to check emails without prior knowledge - we are in a >>> similar phase with semantic web applications, we (non developers, >>> otherwise intelligent - users with different operational business >>> and other IT background not RDF) need/want to learn how to use them >>> and give feedback to developers, but they cant. They also feel a >>> little helpless and stupid in the process, typical symptoms of poor >>> usability >>> >>> Semantic technologies are now designed to be used by specialists >>> (understandable as these are mostly alpha/beta, but as they become >>> more and more pervasive, also their usability must increase) >>> >>> 3. Genral lack of guidelines, how to's and comprehensive list of >>> tutorials and support for people who would like to use the >>> things, as well as for developers who dont know what seem to >>> understand what the issues are. Sometimes semantic web tools appear >>> mysterious in appearance and functionality to the uninitated. >>> >>> >>> I think in the BOF we could aim to expand the above list of 'issues' >>> with inputs from different viewpoints, identify what is the cause of >>> lack of usability, discuss possible initiatives that could increase >>> usability, including possibly some futuristic web based >>> application/service to collect all the user comments from semantic >>> test environments and gather them in a repository that could be used >>> to develop tutorials (support the users) as well as guidelines (help >>> the developers develop more friendly tools following appropriate >>> guidelines). Anything else that interested contributors feel should >>> be added/discussed >>> >>> >>> Wiki >>> >>> I tried to log into Roberto's suggested wiki, but cannot creat an >>> account (the option login/create account only leads to >>> a login screen, not a create account one) I have already written to >>> Robert about it >>> >>> Could not find conference wiki >>> >>> Any wiki where I can write to would be good at stage, if you can set >>> one up quickly on the way to the airport >>> and post the contents of this message, if we dont hear from Roberto >>> otherwise, would be fine for me >>> >>> Thanks Ivan and all >>> Please note that your reply if you dont cc my gmail >>> >>> >>> look forward >>> >>> PDM >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ivan Herman" <ivan@w3.org >>> <mailto:ivan@w3.org>> >>> To: <editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>> >>> Cc: <emmanuelle@sidar.org <mailto:emmanuelle@sidar.org>>; >>> "'T.Heath'" <T.Heath@open.ac.uk <mailto:T.Heath@open.ac.uk>>; >>> "'SW-forum Web'" <semantic-web@w3.org <mailto:semantic-web@w3.org>> >>> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 3:29 PM >>> Subject: Re: Semantic Web Usability BOF in Busan >>> >>> >>> Setting up a wiki page on ESW is not a problem; but Roberto referred to >>> an existing page already. Whichever people feel is better. >>> >>> I would still like to understand the issues first. >>> >>> Is there some sort of a wiki or other option set up for ISWC >>> participants? It would be a good place to organize such ad hoc >>> get-togethers... I have tried to find at the ISWC page, but have not >>> found any. >>> >>> Ivan >>> >>> P.S. Leaving for Korea in about 5 hours... >>> >>> editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com> wrote: >>>> Dear Ivan and all >>>> >>>> thanks for the interest in this issue >>>> it will be good to meet >>>> >>>> It looks like from the responses so far that we have some momentum, >>>> and >>>> considering I cannot quite help with the debugging of the applications >>>> just as yet , I ll be happy to help foster a plan >>>> >>>> Is there a W3C wiki page dedicated to Usability of Semantic Web >>>> where I >>>> can post some notes? If not shall I open a wiki elsewhere? Thanks >>>> >>>> The people who have expressed explicit interest so far are >>>> Emmanuelle Sidar >>>> Tom Heath Open U >>>> Knud Hinner Deri >>>> M Daquin Open U >>>> Hugh Glaser >>>> Roberto Garcia >>>> J Chetwynd >>>> Richard Cygniak >>>> Ivan Herman >>>> (update this list if I missed anyone) >>>> Adrian Walker sent some notes (havent read yet) >>>> [1] >>>> www.reengineeringllc.com/Internet_Business_Logic_e-Government_Presentation.pdf >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Except for those who are not in Busan, whom we shall keep posted of >>>> any >>>> discussions and outcomes on list, I look forward to be meeting >>>> everybody in the next few days >>>> >>>> Tom Heath suggests a BOF meeting at lunch on Thursday, which may be >>>> fine for some but others may have flown already by then, so anyone who >>>> can make it for lunch contact Tom directly to get details/directions >>>> >>>> I hope that maybe an additional/alternative informal get together >>>> before >>>> Thursday an be arranged, for those who still have a spare slot and may >>>> have left by Thursday - email your availability and/or just catch >>>> me ( >>>> I ll try to wear a tshirt >>>> that says SEMANTIC USABILITY if I can get it printed on the fly) >>>> >>>> i am best contacted via paola.dimaio ATDONOTSPAMMEANYMORE gmail.com, >>>> but cannot post to list from there >>>> >>>> With the OK of the organisers, I will put up a notice on the >>>> conference >>>> message board about details >>>> >>>> Look forward! >>>> Thanks a lot for interest >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> Paola Di Maio >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ivan Herman" <ivan@w3.org >>>> <mailto:ivan@w3.org>> >>>> To: <editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>> >>>> Cc: <emmanuelle@sidar.org <mailto:emmanuelle@sidar.org>>; >>>> "'T.Heath'" <T.Heath@open.ac.uk <mailto:T.Heath@open.ac.uk>>; >>>> "'SW-forum >>>> Web'" <semantic-web@w3.org <mailto:semantic-web@w3.org>> >>>> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 7:01 PM >>>> Subject: Re: Semantic Web Usability BOF in Busan >>>> >>>> >>>> I will be there. And I would like to understand the issues and whether >>>> W3C is in position to do something about those. >>>> >>>> Note that W3C has been facing the issue of usability for a long time >>>> (Semantic or not Semantic Web) but we could never get enough member >>>> enthusiasm to start something more serious in the area.... (except for >>>> the web accessibility area which probably includes a subset of the >>>> general usability issues). >>>> >>>> Ivan >>>> >>>> editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I think Tom and I and others may meet in Busan next week, this is >>>>> something I ll put in my agenda too to instigate about. Anyone >>>>> else on >>>>> this list is going to be in Busan, and has an interest in >>>>> Usability and >>>>> Accessibility and related issues, please mail me online and I ll post >>>>> details of any time/place suggested for an informal get together to >>>>> scheme something up >>>>> cheers >>>>> Paola Di Maio >>>>> www.mfu.ac.th >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Emmanuelle Gutiรฉrrez y Restrepo" >>>>> <emmanuelle@sidar.org <mailto:emmanuelle@sidar.org>> >>>>> To: "'T.Heath'" <T.Heath@open.ac.uk <mailto:T.Heath@open.ac.uk>>; >>>>> <editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>>; >>>>> "'SW-forum Web'" <semantic-web@w3.org <mailto:semantic-web@w3.org>> >>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 7:01 AM >>>>> Subject: RE: User testing for semantic applicatons >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi Tom and all, >>>>> >>>>> Yes, you are right, and it has not been my intention, "tar you all >>>>> with the >>>>> same brush". >>>>> But I know a lot of developers of semantics applications, which >>>>> are nice, >>>>> intelligent, and whom I greatly appreciate; And yet not often >>>>> worry about >>>>> the accessibility of his creatures. >>>>> >>>>> I think that the Paola's idea can be useful. We are working in some >>>>> similar, >>>>> so maybe we can work on it togheter. >>>>> >>>>> And we can think in another ideas. But I think that the W3C has some >>>>> type of >>>>> responsability on it too. And I'm sure that they can do something >>>>> about it. >>>>> >>>>> All the best, >>>>> Emmanuelle >>>>> >>>>> Emmanuelle Gutiรฉrrez y Restrepo Fundaciรณn Sidar >>>>> Coordinadora del SIDAR www.sidar.org <http://www.sidar.org> >>>>> Email: coordina@sidar.org <mailto:coordina@sidar.org> >>>>> Tel.: +34 - 91 725 71 47 >>>>> >>>>> -----Mensaje original----- >>>>> De: T.Heath [mailto:T.Heath@open.ac.uk] >>>>> Enviado el: miรฉrcoles, 07 de noviembre de 2007 16:04 >>>>> Para: emmanuelle@sidar.org <mailto:emmanuelle@sidar.org>; >>>>> editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>; SW-forum >>>>> Web >>>>> Asunto: RE: User testing for semantic applicatons >>>>> >>>>> Hi Emmanuelle, >>>>> >>>>> I understand and share your apparent frustration, but please don't >>>>> "tar us >>>>> all with the same brush" [1] :) There are many people working in the >>>>> Semantic Web field who care deeply about understanding, and >>>>> catering to, >>>>> the >>>>> needs of human users (yes, you and I agree, humans are the >>>>> Semantic Web's >>>>> ultimate target audience). Last year's SWUI workshop at ISWC [2] >>>>> and the >>>>> next in the series [3] at CHI2008 are good indicators of this >>>>> commitment. >>>>> >>>>> Sadly, and despite this, the human agenda doesn't always get the >>>>> recognition >>>>> it deserves in the community. Some additional initiatives in this >>>>> area >>>>> would >>>>> be a great idea I think :) >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> >>>>> Tom. >>>>> >>>>> [1] http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/tar+with+the+same+brush >>>>> [2] http://swui.semanticweb.org/swui06/ >>>>> [3] http://swui.semanticweb.org/SWUI2008CHI/ >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: semantic-web-request@w3.org >>>>> <mailto:semantic-web-request@w3.org> on behalf of Emmanuelle >>>>> Gutiรฉrrez y >>>>> Restrepo >>>>> Sent: Wed 07/11/2007 12:27 PM >>>>> To: editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>; >>>>> 'SW-forum Web' >>>>> Subject: RE: User testing for semantic applicatons >>>>> >>>>> Hi "PDM", >>>>> >>>>> I agree with you. There are a lot of work around the "semantic >>>>> web" and >>>>> maybe is a good work for the "machines". But I can't understand >>>>> why the >>>>> people working on it don't care about accessibility. The semantic >>>>> web is >>>>> nothing if can't be useful for the humans. >>>>> >>>>> Accessibility means usability for all. So, I think that complain >>>>> with the >>>>> WCAG must be *prerequisite* for each semantic web application. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> Emmanuelle Gutiรฉrrez y Restrepo Fundaciรณn Sidar >>>>> Coordinadora del SIDAR www.sidar.org >>>>> Email: coordina@sidar.org <mailto:coordina@sidar.org> >>>>> Tel.: +34 - 91 725 71 47 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _____ >>>>> >>>>> De: semantic-web-request@w3.org >>>>> [mailto:semantic-web-request@w3.org] En >>>>> nombre de editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com> >>>>> Enviado el: miรฉrcoles, 07 de >>>>> noviembre de >>>>> 2007 11:40 >>>>> Para: SW-forum Web >>>>> Asunto: User testing for semantic applicatons >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I must say something >>>>> There are a lot of cool applications coming up, I try most of them >>>>> , but >>>>> they are new I am not sure what to expect exactly. What should it do? >>>>> How do >>>>> I know if there is an error, or if this is really the way it >>>>> should look? >>>>> Little documentation, usability almost not taken into account etc. >>>>> Also I dont have all day, just a few minutes, a few clicks, then I >>>>> lose >>>>> interest, must move on >>>>> >>>>> Now, the linked data below is quite straighforward intuitive >>>>> interface >>>>> (not >>>>> bad in fact) although a few more explanations and how to's would be >>>>> good. I >>>>> also got an error when I tried it (different from the error below) >>>>> not >>>>> sure >>>>> what to do next >>>>> >>>>> All this to suggest a forum is created to handle usability of >>>>> semantic >>>>> applications, where we 'users' can report our experiences and get >>>>> some >>>>> help >>>>> in running/understanding the stuffs. I have a lot of feedback and >>>>> user >>>>> tests >>>>> already running on semantic applications, may be most productive if >>>>> handled >>>>> collectively and shared, rather than just sent to the developers >>>>> who are >>>>> likely not to understand my problem anyway (we seem to speak >>>>> different >>>>> languages) >>>>> >>>>> thoughts? >>>>> cheers >>>>> PDM >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Tim Berners-Lee <mailto:timbl@w3.org> >>>>> To: Hugh Glaser <mailto:hg@ecs.soton.ac.uk> >>>>> Cc: Linking Open Data <mailto:linking-open-data@simile.mit.edu> ; >>>>> SW-forum >>>>> Web <mailto:semantic-web@w3.org> ; Ian <mailto:icm@ecs.soton.ac.uk> >>>>> Millard >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 11:15 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: Linked Data available >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Umm ,,, in >>>>> http://nsf.rkbexplorer.com/data/person-6092a2a72319fc9437583fb2d04733ea >>>>> I >>>>> get >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Request for >>>>> http://nsf.rkbexplorer.com/data/person-6092a2a72319fc9437583fb2d04733eaabout >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> under the hood >>>>> Label Request for >>>>> http://nsf.rkbexplorer.com/data/person-6092a2a72319fc9437583fb2d04733ea >>>>> >>>>> Status 200 >>>>> StatusText OK >>>>> Accept-ranges bytes >>>>> Connection close >>>>> Content-length 2005 >>>>> Content type text/xml >>>>> Date Wed, 07 Nov 2007 00:27:37 GMT >>>>> Etag "7785ba-7d5-43e4bd0f48e00" >>>>> Last-modified Wed, 07 Nov 2007 00:27:36 GMT Server Apache/2.0.52 (Red >>>>> Hat) >>>>> Handler opt off expandfetchSourceFetcher.XMLHandler >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Something funny about the XML: Line 2: doctype broken. Shoud not >>>>> be a >>>>> doctype. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> >>>>> <!DOCTYPE rdf:RDF [ >>>>> <!ENTITY rdf 'http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#'> >>>>> <!ENTITY rdfs 'http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#'> >>>>> <!ENTITY owl 'http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#'> >>>>> <!ENTITY akt 'http://www.aktors.org/ontology/portal#'> >>>>> <!ENTITY akts 'http://www.aktors.org/ontology/support#'> >>>>> <!ENTITY extn 'http://www.aktors.org/ontology/extension#'> >>>>> <!ENTITY wiki 'http://resist.ecs.soton.ac.uk/wiki/'> >>>>> <!ENTITY resist >>>>> 'http://resist.ecs.soton.ac.uk/ontologies/resist#'> >>>>> <!ENTITY resex >>>>> 'http://resist.ecs.soton.ac.uk/ontologies/resilience-mechanisms#'> >>>>> <!ENTITY courseware >>>>> 'http://www.resist-noe.org/ontology/courseware#'> >>>>> <!ENTITY dc 'http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/'> >>>>> <!ENTITY dct 'http://purl.org/dc/terms/'> >>>>> ]> >>>>> <rdf:RDF >>>>> xmlns:rdf="&rdf;" >>>>> xmlns:rdfs="&rdfs;" >>>>> xmlns:owl="&owl;" >>>>> xmlns:akt="&akt;" >>>>> xmlns:akts="&akts;" >>>>> xmlns:extn="&extn;" >>>>> xmlns:wiki="&wiki;" >>>>> xmlns:resist="&resist;" >>>>> xmlns:resex="&resex;" >>>>> xmlns:courseware="&courseware;" >>>>> xmlns:dc="&dc;" >>>>> xmlns:dct="&dct;" >>>>> > >>>>> <owl:Ontology rdf:about=""> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> [....] >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead >>> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/ >>> PGP Key: http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html >>> FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf >>> >>> >>> >> >> ---------------------------------- >> n - max wilson >> e - mlw05r@ecs.soton.ac.uk <mailto:mlw05r@ecs.soton.ac.uk> >> w - www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~mlw05r <http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~mlw05r> >> t - +44 (0) 2380 598367 >> ---------------------------------- >> > -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- | Professor Abraham Bernstein, PhD | University of Zürich, Department of Informatics | phone: +41 44 635 4579 | web: www.ifi.uzh.ch/~bernstein | mail: Binzmühlestrasse 14, CH-8050 Zürich, Switzerland
Received on Sunday, 11 November 2007 02:22:28 UTC