- From: Lloyd Rutledge <Lloyd.Rutledge@cwi.nl>
- Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 15:13:49 +0100
- To: Max Wilson <mlw05r@ecs.soton.ac.uk>, "<editor@content-wire.com>" <editor@content-wire.com>, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>, paola.dimaio@gmail.com, emmanuelle@sidar.org, "T.Heath" <T.Heath@open.ac.uk>, SW-forum Web <semantic-web@w3.org>, public-semweb-ui@w3.org
Another gathering point for this discussion could be the at or aronnd the tutorial tomorrow (Sunday) on "User Centered Design for the Semantic Web" <http://www.dfki.de/~jameson/iswc07-tutorial/>. -Lloyd Max Wilson wrote: > This swuiwiki.webscience.org, which is a great place to output any user > based BOF discussion at ISWC this year, has a managed editor list but is > free to view by anyone. Contact details for getting an editor account > are on the front page. Roberto, and now Paola, along with many some now > have accounts. > > Max Wilson > > On 10 Nov 2007, at 09:51, <editor@content-wire.com > <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>> <editor@content-wire.com > <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>> wrote: > >> >> Ivan and all >> me too leaving soon and still working on my reservations, shutingdown >> in a few minutes... >> >> Preliminary list of issues on the fly: >> >> 1. New semantic web tools are being released (primarily RDF based but >> Ontology editors and othe semantic technologiesr too) that look as if >> they are promising and useful but little or no 'usability good >> practices' is in place to make such applications useful to those who >> have never seen one before (ie the majority of the intended users) >> >> People (non developers) dont know >> a) what to do with theb >> b) how to do it >> >> 2. you can look at all the usability issues that once existed about >> web 1.0, great advances have been made there in term >> of internet usability/accessibility, so that now even grandparents >> can manage to check emails without prior knowledge - we are in a >> similar phase with semantic web applications, we (non developers, >> otherwise intelligent - users with different operational business and >> other IT background not RDF) need/want to learn how to use them and >> give feedback to developers, but they cant. They also feel a little >> helpless and stupid in the process, typical symptoms of poor usability >> >> Semantic technologies are now designed to be used by specialists >> (understandable as these are mostly alpha/beta, but as they become >> more and more pervasive, also their usability must increase) >> >> 3. Genral lack of guidelines, how to's and comprehensive list of >> tutorials and support for people who would like to use the >> things, as well as for developers who dont know what seem to >> understand what the issues are. Sometimes semantic web tools appear >> mysterious in appearance and functionality to the uninitated. >> >> >> I think in the BOF we could aim to expand the above list of 'issues' >> with inputs from different viewpoints, identify what is the cause of >> lack of usability, discuss possible initiatives that could increase >> usability, including possibly some futuristic web based >> application/service to collect all the user comments from semantic >> test environments and gather them in a repository that could be used >> to develop tutorials (support the users) as well as guidelines (help >> the developers develop more friendly tools following appropriate >> guidelines). Anything else that interested contributors feel should be >> added/discussed >> >> >> Wiki >> >> I tried to log into Roberto's suggested wiki, but cannot creat an >> account (the option login/create account only leads to >> a login screen, not a create account one) I have already written to >> Robert about it >> >> Could not find conference wiki >> >> Any wiki where I can write to would be good at stage, if you can set >> one up quickly on the way to the airport >> and post the contents of this message, if we dont hear from Roberto >> otherwise, would be fine for me >> >> Thanks Ivan and all >> Please note that your reply if you dont cc my gmail >> >> >> look forward >> >> PDM >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ivan Herman" <ivan@w3.org >> <mailto:ivan@w3.org>> >> To: <editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>> >> Cc: <emmanuelle@sidar.org <mailto:emmanuelle@sidar.org>>; "'T.Heath'" >> <T.Heath@open.ac.uk <mailto:T.Heath@open.ac.uk>>; "'SW-forum Web'" >> <semantic-web@w3.org <mailto:semantic-web@w3.org>> >> Sent: Saturday, November 10, 2007 3:29 PM >> Subject: Re: Semantic Web Usability BOF in Busan >> >> >> Setting up a wiki page on ESW is not a problem; but Roberto referred to >> an existing page already. Whichever people feel is better. >> >> I would still like to understand the issues first. >> >> Is there some sort of a wiki or other option set up for ISWC >> participants? It would be a good place to organize such ad hoc >> get-togethers... I have tried to find at the ISWC page, but have not >> found any. >> >> Ivan >> >> P.S. Leaving for Korea in about 5 hours... >> >> editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com> wrote: >>> Dear Ivan and all >>> >>> thanks for the interest in this issue >>> it will be good to meet >>> >>> It looks like from the responses so far that we have some momentum, and >>> considering I cannot quite help with the debugging of the applications >>> just as yet , I ll be happy to help foster a plan >>> >>> Is there a W3C wiki page dedicated to Usability of Semantic Web where I >>> can post some notes? If not shall I open a wiki elsewhere? Thanks >>> >>> The people who have expressed explicit interest so far are >>> Emmanuelle Sidar >>> Tom Heath Open U >>> Knud Hinner Deri >>> M Daquin Open U >>> Hugh Glaser >>> Roberto Garcia >>> J Chetwynd >>> Richard Cygniak >>> Ivan Herman >>> (update this list if I missed anyone) >>> Adrian Walker sent some notes (havent read yet) >>> [1] >>> www.reengineeringllc.com/Internet_Business_Logic_e-Government_Presentation.pdf >>> >>> >>> >>> Except for those who are not in Busan, whom we shall keep posted of any >>> discussions and outcomes on list, I look forward to be meeting >>> everybody in the next few days >>> >>> Tom Heath suggests a BOF meeting at lunch on Thursday, which may be >>> fine for some but others may have flown already by then, so anyone who >>> can make it for lunch contact Tom directly to get details/directions >>> >>> I hope that maybe an additional/alternative informal get together before >>> Thursday an be arranged, for those who still have a spare slot and may >>> have left by Thursday - email your availability and/or just catch me ( >>> I ll try to wear a tshirt >>> that says SEMANTIC USABILITY if I can get it printed on the fly) >>> >>> i am best contacted via paola.dimaio ATDONOTSPAMMEANYMORE gmail.com, >>> but cannot post to list from there >>> >>> With the OK of the organisers, I will put up a notice on the conference >>> message board about details >>> >>> Look forward! >>> Thanks a lot for interest >>> >>> Cheers >>> Paola Di Maio >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ivan Herman" <ivan@w3.org >>> <mailto:ivan@w3.org>> >>> To: <editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>> >>> Cc: <emmanuelle@sidar.org <mailto:emmanuelle@sidar.org>>; "'T.Heath'" >>> <T.Heath@open.ac.uk <mailto:T.Heath@open.ac.uk>>; "'SW-forum >>> Web'" <semantic-web@w3.org <mailto:semantic-web@w3.org>> >>> Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 7:01 PM >>> Subject: Re: Semantic Web Usability BOF in Busan >>> >>> >>> I will be there. And I would like to understand the issues and whether >>> W3C is in position to do something about those. >>> >>> Note that W3C has been facing the issue of usability for a long time >>> (Semantic or not Semantic Web) but we could never get enough member >>> enthusiasm to start something more serious in the area.... (except for >>> the web accessibility area which probably includes a subset of the >>> general usability issues). >>> >>> Ivan >>> >>> editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> I think Tom and I and others may meet in Busan next week, this is >>>> something I ll put in my agenda too to instigate about. Anyone else on >>>> this list is going to be in Busan, and has an interest in Usability and >>>> Accessibility and related issues, please mail me online and I ll post >>>> details of any time/place suggested for an informal get together to >>>> scheme something up >>>> cheers >>>> Paola Di Maio >>>> www.mfu.ac.th >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Emmanuelle Gutiรฉrrez y Restrepo" >>>> <emmanuelle@sidar.org <mailto:emmanuelle@sidar.org>> >>>> To: "'T.Heath'" <T.Heath@open.ac.uk <mailto:T.Heath@open.ac.uk>>; >>>> <editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>>; >>>> "'SW-forum Web'" <semantic-web@w3.org <mailto:semantic-web@w3.org>> >>>> Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 7:01 AM >>>> Subject: RE: User testing for semantic applicatons >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Tom and all, >>>> >>>> Yes, you are right, and it has not been my intention, "tar you all >>>> with the >>>> same brush". >>>> But I know a lot of developers of semantics applications, which are >>>> nice, >>>> intelligent, and whom I greatly appreciate; And yet not often worry >>>> about >>>> the accessibility of his creatures. >>>> >>>> I think that the Paola's idea can be useful. We are working in some >>>> similar, >>>> so maybe we can work on it togheter. >>>> >>>> And we can think in another ideas. But I think that the W3C has some >>>> type of >>>> responsability on it too. And I'm sure that they can do something >>>> about it. >>>> >>>> All the best, >>>> Emmanuelle >>>> >>>> Emmanuelle Gutiรฉrrez y Restrepo Fundaciรณn Sidar >>>> Coordinadora del SIDAR www.sidar.org <http://www.sidar.org> >>>> Email: coordina@sidar.org <mailto:coordina@sidar.org> >>>> Tel.: +34 - 91 725 71 47 >>>> >>>> -----Mensaje original----- >>>> De: T.Heath [mailto:T.Heath@open.ac.uk] >>>> Enviado el: miรฉrcoles, 07 de noviembre de 2007 16:04 >>>> Para: emmanuelle@sidar.org <mailto:emmanuelle@sidar.org>; >>>> editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>; SW-forum Web >>>> Asunto: RE: User testing for semantic applicatons >>>> >>>> Hi Emmanuelle, >>>> >>>> I understand and share your apparent frustration, but please don't >>>> "tar us >>>> all with the same brush" [1] :) There are many people working in the >>>> Semantic Web field who care deeply about understanding, and catering to, >>>> the >>>> needs of human users (yes, you and I agree, humans are the Semantic >>>> Web's >>>> ultimate target audience). Last year's SWUI workshop at ISWC [2] and the >>>> next in the series [3] at CHI2008 are good indicators of this >>>> commitment. >>>> >>>> Sadly, and despite this, the human agenda doesn't always get the >>>> recognition >>>> it deserves in the community. Some additional initiatives in this area >>>> would >>>> be a great idea I think :) >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> Tom. >>>> >>>> [1] http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/tar+with+the+same+brush >>>> [2] http://swui.semanticweb.org/swui06/ >>>> [3] http://swui.semanticweb.org/SWUI2008CHI/ >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: semantic-web-request@w3.org >>>> <mailto:semantic-web-request@w3.org> on behalf of Emmanuelle >>>> Gutiรฉrrez y >>>> Restrepo >>>> Sent: Wed 07/11/2007 12:27 PM >>>> To: editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com>; >>>> 'SW-forum Web' >>>> Subject: RE: User testing for semantic applicatons >>>> >>>> Hi "PDM", >>>> >>>> I agree with you. There are a lot of work around the "semantic web" and >>>> maybe is a good work for the "machines". But I can't understand why the >>>> people working on it don't care about accessibility. The semantic web is >>>> nothing if can't be useful for the humans. >>>> >>>> Accessibility means usability for all. So, I think that complain >>>> with the >>>> WCAG must be *prerequisite* for each semantic web application. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> Emmanuelle Gutiรฉrrez y Restrepo Fundaciรณn Sidar >>>> Coordinadora del SIDAR www.sidar.org >>>> Email: coordina@sidar.org <mailto:coordina@sidar.org> >>>> Tel.: +34 - 91 725 71 47 >>>> >>>> >>>> _____ >>>> >>>> De: semantic-web-request@w3.org [mailto:semantic-web-request@w3.org] En >>>> nombre de editor@content-wire.com <mailto:editor@content-wire.com> >>>> Enviado el: miรฉrcoles, 07 de >>>> noviembre de >>>> 2007 11:40 >>>> Para: SW-forum Web >>>> Asunto: User testing for semantic applicatons >>>> >>>> >>>> I must say something >>>> There are a lot of cool applications coming up, I try most of them , but >>>> they are new I am not sure what to expect exactly. What should it do? >>>> How do >>>> I know if there is an error, or if this is really the way it should >>>> look? >>>> Little documentation, usability almost not taken into account etc. >>>> Also I dont have all day, just a few minutes, a few clicks, then I lose >>>> interest, must move on >>>> >>>> Now, the linked data below is quite straighforward intuitive interface >>>> (not >>>> bad in fact) although a few more explanations and how to's would be >>>> good. I >>>> also got an error when I tried it (different from the error below) not >>>> sure >>>> what to do next >>>> >>>> All this to suggest a forum is created to handle usability of semantic >>>> applications, where we 'users' can report our experiences and get some >>>> help >>>> in running/understanding the stuffs. I have a lot of feedback and user >>>> tests >>>> already running on semantic applications, may be most productive if >>>> handled >>>> collectively and shared, rather than just sent to the developers who are >>>> likely not to understand my problem anyway (we seem to speak different >>>> languages) >>>> >>>> thoughts? >>>> cheers >>>> PDM >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Tim Berners-Lee <mailto:timbl@w3.org> >>>> To: Hugh Glaser <mailto:hg@ecs.soton.ac.uk> >>>> Cc: Linking Open Data <mailto:linking-open-data@simile.mit.edu> ; >>>> SW-forum >>>> Web <mailto:semantic-web@w3.org> ; Ian <mailto:icm@ecs.soton.ac.uk> >>>> Millard >>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 11:15 AM >>>> Subject: Re: Linked Data available >>>> >>>> >>>> Umm ,,, in >>>> http://nsf.rkbexplorer.com/data/person-6092a2a72319fc9437583fb2d04733ea >>>> I >>>> get >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Request for >>>> http://nsf.rkbexplorer.com/data/person-6092a2a72319fc9437583fb2d04733eaabout >>>> >>>> >>>> under the hood >>>> Label Request for >>>> http://nsf.rkbexplorer.com/data/person-6092a2a72319fc9437583fb2d04733ea >>>> Status 200 >>>> StatusText OK >>>> Accept-ranges bytes >>>> Connection close >>>> Content-length 2005 >>>> Content type text/xml >>>> Date Wed, 07 Nov 2007 00:27:37 GMT >>>> Etag "7785ba-7d5-43e4bd0f48e00" >>>> Last-modified Wed, 07 Nov 2007 00:27:36 GMT Server Apache/2.0.52 (Red >>>> Hat) >>>> Handler opt off expandfetchSourceFetcher.XMLHandler >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Something funny about the XML: Line 2: doctype broken. Shoud not be a >>>> doctype. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> >>>> <!DOCTYPE rdf:RDF [ >>>> <!ENTITY rdf 'http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#'> >>>> <!ENTITY rdfs 'http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#'> >>>> <!ENTITY owl 'http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#'> >>>> <!ENTITY akt 'http://www.aktors.org/ontology/portal#'> >>>> <!ENTITY akts 'http://www.aktors.org/ontology/support#'> >>>> <!ENTITY extn 'http://www.aktors.org/ontology/extension#'> >>>> <!ENTITY wiki 'http://resist.ecs.soton.ac.uk/wiki/'> >>>> <!ENTITY resist >>>> 'http://resist.ecs.soton.ac.uk/ontologies/resist#'> >>>> <!ENTITY resex >>>> 'http://resist.ecs.soton.ac.uk/ontologies/resilience-mechanisms#'> >>>> <!ENTITY courseware >>>> 'http://www.resist-noe.org/ontology/courseware#'> >>>> <!ENTITY dc 'http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/'> >>>> <!ENTITY dct 'http://purl.org/dc/terms/'> >>>> ]> >>>> <rdf:RDF >>>> xmlns:rdf="&rdf;" >>>> xmlns:rdfs="&rdfs;" >>>> xmlns:owl="&owl;" >>>> xmlns:akt="&akt;" >>>> xmlns:akts="&akts;" >>>> xmlns:extn="&extn;" >>>> xmlns:wiki="&wiki;" >>>> xmlns:resist="&resist;" >>>> xmlns:resex="&resex;" >>>> xmlns:courseware="&courseware;" >>>> xmlns:dc="&dc;" >>>> xmlns:dct="&dct;" >>>> > >>>> <owl:Ontology rdf:about=""> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> [....] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead >> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/ >> PGP Key: http://www.ivan-herman.net/pgpkey.html >> FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf >> >> >> > > ---------------------------------- > n - max wilson > e - mlw05r@ecs.soton.ac.uk <mailto:mlw05r@ecs.soton.ac.uk> > w - www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~mlw05r <http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~mlw05r> > t - +44 (0) 2380 598367 > ---------------------------------- >
Received on Saturday, 10 November 2007 14:14:26 UTC