- From: Cutler, Roger (RogerCutler) <RogerCutler@chevron.com>
- Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2010 15:25:09 -0600
- To: <public-xg-audio@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <74D099405487FD48AEBE947AC287EB725C8AFD@HOU150NTXC16M.hou150.chevrontexaco.net>
I would like to propose a discussion in this group of what might/should be done to standardize and promote the use of music notation on the Web. I talked about this a bit at the recent TPAC meeting and a number of people responded positively. I then posted a couple notes on AC-Forum and there was some resulting conversation. Here is some of that conversation (from people who have given me explicit permission to quote): Roger (in response to the announcement of work on the Audio Group Charter): I would like to say again that it seems to me that work on music markup would be more in the spirit of the architecture of the Web. By this I mean that the current norm in publishing music is to put an image of the music, often PDF but there are other possibilities, onto a Web site as a binary image. If you then want to USE the music in any kind of modified form (for example, if you want to transpose it into a different key, a VERY common use case) you need to use a scanner and some sort of music OCR to get it into an editable form. Let me tell you from experience, music scanning software gives a VERY approximento result, so in practice you have to spend literally hours on the simplest score fixing the errors. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to publish music in a way that the CONTENT, as opposed to the formatting, could be picked up and used? Isn't that kind of in the spirit of the Web? And isn't it also kind of in the spirit of the Web to worry about the content before you start messing around with binary streams and images? Charles McCathieNevile: As has been mentioned a few times, I think it would be great to have a musical *notation* format for the web. Indeed, one of the most exciting use cases I see for the audio API which kicked off this discussion is being able to do Web apps that interact with real music. There are various initiatives for marking up music for the Web - my name is somewhere in an ISO spec (it doesn't say so, but I think I was outstanding for not actually contributing anything all to the discussion). I agree with Ian though. The Audio API is a piece of work that has clear developer interest, and work on that line is a separate issue. But I would like to see people who want to lead a group working on music notation, and look forward to the proposal for an XG. While I cannot make guarantees, there are a few people in Opera who are very interested in different kinds of music and might be able to participate with more regularity and importantly far more knowledge than me. Roger: I'm a bit disappointed that no one has commented on the central question that I am asking - which, if you like, is a gentle objection to a proposal for a new W3C activity. Let me try again, perhaps a bit less gently. There is certainly well over 500 years of experience in representing the content of music, and there are entire industries that depend on this capability. This is not a subject that has not been thoroughly studied and used. This is, in any reasonable sense of the term, a mature technology. Sadly, the Web is blind to the content of music. Is it not consistent with the fundamental architecture of the Web to worry about the content of the information before trying to figure out schemes to transmit the bit streams that result from representations of that content? Is an audio streaming activity really appropriate in the absence of standards for transmitting the content from which those streams are derived? Have I missed something really fundamental here? Dan Brickley: My guess is that music markup, like geneaology, is one of those topics where many of us around here have a personal rather than professional interest, and where a W3C Community group will be able to benefit from a lot of evening/weekend enthusiasm from Web standards old-times. Not that I'm calling anyone old! :) [NOTE - There ARE companies involved with music notation and publishing, but they are not in the W3C. I'd really like to reach out to them and try to involve them in this effort, and I have some ideas how to make that attractive, or at least how NOT to make it UNattractive - Roger] Dan Brickley: I agree with the importance, but suggest perhaps MathML is the best analogy. Getting support for maths in Web content was similarly backed by centuries of cultural heritage; but that alone wasn't enough to make it a major priority for all browser-makers. While Javascript isn't a magic cure-all, the flexibility and extensibility of modern browsers (esp. given richer post-HTML5 APIs eg. canvas/svg and the upcoming Audio work) make it much easier for 3rd parties to bolt such functionality on, even if the browser teams are too busy with other features. I expect much the same for music. Also btw I'm assuming the audio APIs work will explore sound synthesis, which should help motivate people to work with notation formats. Charles McCathieNevile: >> I'm a bit disappointed that no one has commented on the central question >> that I am asking - which, if you like, is a gentle objection to a >> proposal for a new W3C activity. Let me clarify that aspect of my comment: I see no conflict between the API activity and Music notation - they are complementary. >> Let me try again, perhaps a bit less gently. There is certainly well >> over 500 years of experience in representing the content of music, and >> there are entire industries that depend on this capability. This is >> not a subject that has not been thoroughly studied and used. This is, >> in any reasonable sense of the term, a mature technology. Sadly, the >> Web is blind to the content of music. Agreed. Indeed, over a decade ago my first attempt at building an XML vocabulary was a language for representing music, because it seemed obvious to me that this was something the web should get - no musical representation is monolithic and universal, but I believe common notation styles are as widely understoood than any written language, and across many different 'linguistic cultures'. >> Is it not consistent with the fundamental architecture of the Web to >> worry about the content of the information before trying to figure >> out schemes to transmit the bit streams that result from >> representations of that content? Probably not. It is consistent with a sound architecture of the Web to separate the two so they can be developed independently, rather than depending tightly on one another. Indeed a read/write audio API would not only allow generation of music from a score, but would enable clever people to generate a score from an audio stream (realising a high-school physics project I did, but in a far more useful way ;) ). It is also consistent with the development of the Web to work on things where there is clear interest in "mass-market" implementation. I don't mean that 'if it isn't on the public web it isn't relevant' - I happen to consider that an extremely short-sighted approach. But I do mean that willingness to invest in implementing the work of a group is an important criterion for deciding whether such a group is likely to produce something tangible, or a recommendation for what other people should do that will be made without the significant real-world testing that a good web standard requires. >> Is an audio streaming activity really appropriate in the absence of >> standards for transmitting the content from which those streams are >> derived? Sure. The two are, and should be, orthogonal. > Have I missed something really fundamental here? People are implementing audio APIs now. That means it makes sense to standardise, so we get one common one and can build things that reach the world, not just the google-verse or the mozilla-verse or the opera-verse. If the music publishing industry, or the browser industry, or some other significant segment, were to put there money where our desires are and start seriously working on this, it would make sense to do it. Until then, it is a part of the full potential of the web that is not yet realised, and W3C would be premature in trying to drag us there without real-world support. As I did a decade ago, I still hope that this will in fact happen. But like trying to create regulations for Nuclear Fusion-based power plants, or personal petroleum refineries, or a standard sign-language notation for the Web that can be used to drive avatars, I think today we are still too far ahead of the demand curve to begin this work. I'd be happy for that to change tomorrow, but it takes more than good ideas. Noah Mendelssohn: > Isn't this discussion just one aspect of a more general topic -- the trend in the W3C away from declarative markup and towards an API-driven Web? No, in this case I think it's more fundamental, because the API and the markup in question are dealing with completely different levels of information. The API is for waveform samples at, say, 44KHz. The markup is for conveying musical scores, typically with features like key signatures, notes with specific durations, rests, etc.
Received on Friday, 10 December 2010 21:25:45 UTC