Re: "Chrome"

I think at this point we have to agree that there isn't a "usual 
definition of chrome" given the discussions we've had.  :-)

I think there are many "user-agent UI elements" that are not "window 
chrome" by the definition I provided.  This include preferences dialogs, 
popup windows, voice navigation cues, etc.

In addition, I have three potential concerns with your proposed definitions:

   1. the word "chrome" is it has little meaning outside of a desktop
      browser
   2. we're overloading the term "application" however and would suggest
      "user agent"
   3. aside from "widgets" people don't think of web UI controls as "chrome"
   4. "chrome" implies window-dressing and while our solutions will most
      certainly require UI elements controlled by the user agent, they
      may not be required to be part of the window dressing

I still vote we just kill the word "chrome" unless we're using it very 
explicitly to describe window dressing.  We have the ability to be more 
precise, so why use a word that is demonstrably imprecise?

--Brad

Mike Beltzner wrote:
> On 20-Feb-07, at 4:45 PM, Brad Porter wrote:
>
>> window chrome -- visual elements used by Desktop browsers or the OS 
>> window manager to surround the web page
>>
>> user-agent user interface elements -- any user interface presentation 
>> controlled explicitly by the browser and not under direct web page 
>> control
>>
>> markup user interface elements --  the user interface elements 
>> specified by the web page. Based on web page content, displayed in 
>> some fashion to the user, through the web user agent.
>> In Yngve's example, widgets do not have "window chrome" as the 
>> browser and the OS do not surround the web page content with any 
>> visual elements.
>>
>> --Brad
>
> So what we're doing here is specifying definitions beyond the usual 
> definition of "chrome", right? I still think it's dangerous to 
> separate "user-agent user interface elements" from "window chrome". 
> Those are, IMO, one and the same. Here's a suggested revision:
>
> Chrome = user interface elements for controlling applications
>
> Client Application Chrome (was: window chrome) = user interface 
> elements controlled by the client-side browser application.
>
> Web Page/Application Chrome (was: markup user interface elements) = 
> user interface elements controlled by the web page or application.
>
> The issue we want to raise is that browsers sometimes render elements 
> of Client Application Chrome with content provided by the webpage. If 
> we must come up with a term for that, I'd suggest "web content 
> presented as client application chrome" or something that's clear and 
> descriptive. We should be describing who controls of the chrome. The 
> problem that exists is that the source of the chrome isn't clearly 
> expressed to users at the moment, since the Client Application Chrome 
> sometimes draws content from the web page.
>
> cheers,
> mike
>
>>
>> Yngve N. Pettersen (Developer Opera Software ASA) wrote:
>>> On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:46:28 +0100, Mary Ellen Zurko 
>>> <Mary_Ellen_Zurko@notesdev.ibm.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Chrome"  : the user interface elements provided by the web user 
>>>> agent.
>>>> Equivalent to "semantic chrome". Chrome can come from whatever 
>>>> software
>>>> gives the user feedback on their web experience; browser, rich 
>>>> client, OS,
>>>> plugins, etc. Dialogs would go here, as an example.
>>>> "Content" : data elements provided by the web page.
>>>>
>>>> Parts of chrome are populated with content, but not all of the 
>>>> chrome is
>>>> populated with content.
>>>
>>> There may be one exception: Widgets. AFAIK Wigdets, at least as 
>>> implemented in Opera does not provide any Opera generated "chrome", 
>>> the widget itself provide all the "chrome".
>>>
>>>
>>> --Sincerely,
>>> Yngve N. Pettersen
>>>
>>> ********************************************************************
>>> Senior Developer                     Email: yngve@opera.com
>>> Opera Software ASA                   http://www.opera.com/
>>> Phone:  +47 24 16 42 60              Fax:    +47 24 16 40 01
>>> ********************************************************************
>>>
>
>