Re: "Chrome"

Yes, I agree that there are lots of sources for "semantic chrome" and 
today there's no way to know which presentation elements are 
browser-controlled vs which aren't.

If the browser is going to say anything about the site at all, then the 
user needs to have some way of establishing trust with the browser.

Consequently, I think establishing trust between 
user->browser-controlled-presentation-elements for those presentation 
elements which make statements about a web site is a prerequisite to 
pretty much any solution we come up with and therefore must be in scope.

--Brad

michael.mccormick@wellsfargo.com wrote:
> I like the distinction between "window chrome" and "semantic chrome".  
> But I think there's a whole spectrum of semantic chrome sources.  From 
> most to least trusted, all the following can produce such chrome: OS > 
> base browser > TTP browser plug-in > TTP script/applet/control > 
> unintentionally activated script/applet/control > malware emulating 
> the OS or browser.
>  
> For example all the things I just listed can generate pop-up dialogs.  
> Ideally there's needs to be some contextual information in the pop-up 
> chrome that tells me its source or gives me contextual cues about the 
> source's trustworthiness.  In scope or not?
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* public-wsc-wg-request@w3.org 
> [mailto:public-wsc-wg-request@w3.org] *On Behalf Of *Brad Porter
> *Sent:* Monday, February 12, 2007 11:24 AM
> *To:* Hal Lockhart
> *Cc:* Mike Beltzner; Bob Pinheiro; Mary Ellen Zurko; public-wsc-wg@w3.org
> *Subject:* Re: "Chrome"
>
> Your separation between semantic chrome and the desktop visual chrome 
> is genius.  Given that, I propose two phrases with definitions:
>
> window chrome -- visual elements used by Desktop browsers or the OS 
> window manager to surround the web page
>
> browser-controlled presentation elements -- any user interface 
> presentation controlled explicitly by the browser and not under direct 
> web page control
>
> --Brad
>
> Hal Lockhart wrote:
>> The key point I tried to make at the F2F was that the definitions that
>> most of us would like to use for Chrome represent the way we wish
>> browsers work or hope they will work in future. For example, a strict
>> separation between what the application can control and what the browser
>> controls seems desirable to most of us, but does not currently exist, as
>> reported by many sources.
>>
>> The point of this comment is that first of all, we need to make this
>> clear in our glossary, so as to avoid arguments about current
>> violations. Also in evaluating potential definitions, we need to be
>> aware of the present/future distinction. Looking at the thread below, I
>> believe MEZ and Bob have proposed future definitions, whereas the two
>> that Mike found are present definitions.
>>
>> I see the choice as being between defining Chrome in purely graphical
>> terms (stuff around the edge of the screen) or semantically (stuff from
>> browser not web site).
>>
>> Hal
>>
>>   
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: public-wsc-wg-request@w3.org
>>>     
>> [mailto:public-wsc-wg-request@w3.org]
>>   
>>> On Behalf Of Mike Beltzner
>>> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:13 AM
>>> To: Bob Pinheiro
>>> Cc: Mary Ellen Zurko; public-wsc-wg@w3.org
>>> Subject: Re: "Chrome"
>>>
>>>
>>> A couple of definitions I found ..:
>>>
>>> "The interface elements of a browser, or any other program, that
>>> create the frame around the window that displays pages."
>>>    (cite: http://www.chriscassell.net/classes/2001/winter/gdt150/
>>> handouts/vocabulary.html)
>>>
>>> "The visible graphical interface features of an application are
>>> sometimes referred to as "chrome". They include graphical elements
>>> (widgets) that may be used to interact with the program. Common
>>> widgets are: windows, buttons, menus, and scroll bars. Larger
>>> widgets, such as windows, usually provide a frame or container for
>>> the main presentation content such as a web page, email message or
>>> drawing. Smaller ones usually act as a user-input tool."
>>>    (cite:
>>>     
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_interface_chrome#GUI_design)
>>   
>>> I think the salient detail is that chrome is what allows the user to
>>> interact with the browser alone from interacting with the web
>>> content. Bob's point about the display of chrome being restricted to
>>> the browser is also good to keep in mind, and relevant for our
>>>     
>> purposes.
>>   
>>> cheers,
>>> mike
>>>
>>> On 12-Feb-07, at 9:44 AM, Bob Pinheiro wrote:
>>>
>>>     
>>>> I thought the key distinction with regard to "chrome" is that there
>>>> are certain areas of the browser window that are solely under the
>>>> control of the browser, and not the website being displayed.  So
>>>> anything displayed in the "chrome" can be assumed to be coming from
>>>> the browser itself, and not the website.  However, if some browsers
>>>> have areas where both the browser and the website can communicate
>>>> information, that seems to muddy the issue.  Maybe such areas
>>>> should have a different name, reserving "chrome" for those areas
>>>> where only the browser can communicate to the user.
>>>>
>>>> At 08:16 AM 2/12/2007, Mary Ellen Zurko wrote:
>>>>
>>>>       
>>>>> During our f2f, the discussion about "chrome - what is it" came up
>>>>> again. The discussion was part of going over "Poorly defined role
>>>>> for chrome". It was a divergence at the time, so we decided to
>>>>> take the discussion to the list. See:
>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2007/01/30-wsc-minutes.html
>>>>> "what is chrome? diaglog boxes should be included"
>>>>>
>>>>> We'll need the definition of Chrome for the Glossary that Tim is
>>>>> pulling together as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I mean to mean by Chrome are the parts of the window that
>>>>> include information that the User agent/Browser is trying to
>>>>> communicate to the user, vs the parts where the browser is
>>>>> (expected to) faithfully represent what the web site/page is
>>>>> trying to communicate to the user. Some areas in some browsers
>>>>> currently contain both (for example, the title area including both
>>>>> the HTML title and browser identity information).
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone else have a better definition?
>>>>>
>>>>> I also remember people getting fixated on the word. If the word
>>>>> itself is getting in the way of a concept we consider important,
>>>>> then we can start using some other word which we can all agree on.
>>>>> So this might instead be an exercise where we agree on the concept
>>>>> first, then agree on the word we'll use.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [ACTION-132 - Start discussion on mailing list to draw chrome
>>>>> items out and get analysis completed [on Mary Ellen Zurko - due
>>>>> 2007-02-13].]
>>>>>
>>>>>           Mez
>>>>>
>>>>> Mary Ellen Zurko, STSM, IBM Lotus CTO Office       (t/l 333-6389)
>>>>> Lotus/WPLC Security Strategy and Patent Innovation Architect
>>>>>         
>>>> ---------------------------------------
>>>> Bob Pinheiro
>>>> FSTC Project Management
>>>> Bob.Pinheiro@FSTC.org
>>>> 1 908-654-1939
>>>>       
>>
>>
>>
>>