- From: Ram Jeyaraman <Ram.Jeyaraman@microsoft.com>
- Date: Thu, 14 Jan 2010 20:31:07 +0000
- To: Doug Davis <dug@us.ibm.com>, "public-ws-resource-access@w3.org" <public-ws-resource-access@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <503546C5699C1144BDEA0D0DFFE7F881184B234C@TK5EX14MBXC119.redmond.corp.microsoft.>
Agree with the direction. Some suggestions below.
Ø 1 - add <wse:EndToSupported .../>? to the Eventing policy assertion as a parameter (after wse:FormatName).
/wse:EventSource/wse:EndToSupported
When present, this OPTIONAL parameter indicates support for the /wse:Subscribe/wse:EndTo semantics. That is, when a subscription request contains an wse:EndTo element, a SubscriptionEnd message will be sent to the EPR contained in the wse:EndTo element, if the subscription terminates unexpectedly.
Ø 2 - add <xs:element name='EndToSupported' type='tns:Empty' minOccurs='0'/> to the eventing xsd after def'n of FormatName param.
Yes.
Ø 4 - define a new fault "EndToNotSupported" for cases where an EndTo is passed in on the Subscribe but the source doesn't support it
6.11 EndToNotSupported
This fault is generated by an event source that does not support /wse:Subscribe/wse:EndTo semantics, in response to a subscription request that contains an wse:EndTo element.
[Code]
s12:Sender
[Subcode]
wse:EndToNotSupported
[Reason]
wse:EndTo semantics is not supported.
[Detail]
none
Ø 5 - add text for the new fault under the def'n of EndTo in the Subscribe section:
If the event source does not support the use of the EndTo EPR, the event source MUST generate a wse:EndToNotSupported fault.
Yes.
Ø 3 - modify section 4.5 from:
If the event source terminates a subscription unexpectedly, a SubscriptionEnd SOAP message SHOULD be sent to the endpoint reference indicated when the subscription was created (see 4.1 Subscribe). This endpoint reference MUST refer to an endpoint that supports the SubscriptionEndPortType portType. Support for including the EndTo EPR in a Subscribe request message (and implicitly the sending of the SubscriptionEnd message) MUST be supported by compliant event sources. The message MUST be of the following form:
to
If the event source terminates a subscription unexpectedly, EndTo is supported, and the wse:EndTo EPR was present in the Subscribe message for that subscription (see 4.1 Subscribe), the SubscriptionEnd message MUST be sent to the endpoint referenced by that EPR. The message MUST be of the following form:
Suggestion:
If the event source terminates a subscription unexpectedly, it supports wse:EndTo semantics, and the wse:EndTo EPR was present in the Subscribe message for that subscription (see 4.1 Subscribe), the SubscriptionEnd message MUST be sent to the endpoint referenced by that EPR. The message MUST be of the following form:
Thanks.
From: public-ws-resource-access-request@w3.org [mailto:public-ws-resource-access-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Doug Davis
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 11:31 AM
To: public-ws-resource-access@w3.org
Subject: RE: [Bug 8286] New: description of Subscription End ambiguous
Looking at option 2 - I think it becomes:
1 - add <wse:EndToSupported .../>? to the Eventing policy assertion as a parameter (after wse:FormatName).
2 - add <xs:element name='EndToSupported' type='tns:Empty' minOccurs='0'/> to the eventing xsd after def'n of FormatName param.
3 - modify section 4.5 from:
If the event source terminates a subscription unexpectedly, a SubscriptionEnd SOAP message SHOULD be sent to the endpoint reference indicated when the subscription was created (see 4.1 Subscribe). This endpoint reference MUST refer to an endpoint that supports the SubscriptionEndPortType portType. Support for including the EndTo EPR in a Subscribe request message (and implicitly the sending of the SubscriptionEnd message) MUST be supported by compliant event sources. The message MUST be of the following form:
to
If the event source terminates a subscription unexpectedly, EndTo is supported, and the wse:EndTo EPR was present in the Subscribe message for that subscription (see 4.1 Subscribe), the SubscriptionEnd message MUST be sent to the endpoint referenced by that EPR. The message MUST be of the following form:
4 - define a new fault "EndToNotSupported" for cases where an EndTo is passed in on the Subscribe but the source doesn't support it
5 - add text for the new fault under the def'n of EndTo in the Subscribe section:
If the event source does not support the use of the EndTo EPR, the event source MUST generate a wse:EndToNotSupported fault.
6 - make similar edits to WS-Enumeration.
thanks
-Doug
______________________________________________________
STSM | Standards Architect | IBM Software Group
(919) 254-6905 | IBM 444-6905 | dug@us.ibm.com<mailto:dug@us.ibm.com>
The more I'm around some people, the more I like my dog.
Ram Jeyaraman <Ram.Jeyaraman@microsoft.com<mailto:Ram.Jeyaraman@microsoft.com>>
01/12/2010 12:48 PM
To
Doug Davis/Raleigh/IBM@IBMUS, "Li, Li (Li)" <lli5@avaya.com<mailto:lli5@avaya.com>>
cc
"public-ws-resource-access@w3.org<mailto:public-ws-resource-access@w3.org>" <public-ws-resource-access@w3.org<mailto:public-ws-resource-access@w3.org>>
Subject
RE: [Bug 8286] New: description of Subscription End ambiguous
One of the reasons why a SHOULD is used for SubscriptionEnd message is because it is possible that a service may suffer abrupt shutdown and hence may not be able to send the terminal message. Besides, a service simply may not support SubscriptionEnd.
I can see two possible ways to tackle this issue:
1. Keep it optional
a. Leave the specification as is - that is, the SubscriptionEnd SHOULD be sent.
2. Keep it conditional [Gil's proposal (attached) as clarified below]
a. Service behavior
i. The enumeration data source may or may not support sending EnumerationEnd.
ii. If EnumerationEnd is supported, the data source will advertise this via the enumeration policy.
iii. If the service advertises support for EnumerationEnd and the client sends EndTo, it must make a best attempt to send EnumerationEnd.
iv. If the service does NOT advertise support for EnumerationEnd and the client sends EndTo, it must generate an SubscriptionEndNotSupported fault.
b. Client behavior
i. Depending on whether the service supports EnumerationEnd or not, the client sends an EndTo.
I am continuing to think about other possible ways.
Thanks.
From: public-ws-resource-access-request@w3.org<mailto:public-ws-resource-access-request@w3.org> [mailto:public-ws-resource-access-request@w3.org]<mailto:[mailto:public-ws-resource-access-request@w3.org]> On Behalf Of Doug Davis
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2010 8:00 AM
To: Li, Li (Li)
Cc: public-ws-resource-access@w3.org<mailto:public-ws-resource-access@w3.org>
Subject: RE: [Bug 8286] New: description of Subscription End ambiguous
Li,
I tend to agree. I think there's always an implicit exception with any MUST in the specs because if the system crashes and doesn't recover its entire state then clearly the MUST will probably not happen. So I interpret these things as "if you're still up and running then you MUST...". The reason I was ok with calling out this one case is because this message/situation is specifically for the case where something really bad happened. But, I can go with your proposal to go with the MUST w/o the "unless..." part - it seems less confusing.
thanks
-Doug
______________________________________________________
STSM | Standards Architect | IBM Software Group
(919) 254-6905 | IBM 444-6905 | dug@us.ibm.com<mailto:dug@us.ibm.com>
The more I'm around some people, the more I like my dog.
"Li, Li (Li)" <lli5@avaya.com<mailto:lli5@avaya.com>>
Sent by: public-ws-resource-access-request@w3.org<mailto:public-ws-resource-access-request@w3.org>
01/12/2010 10:43 AM
To
<public-ws-resource-access@w3.org<mailto:public-ws-resource-access@w3.org>>
cc
Subject
RE: [Bug 8286] New: description of Subscription End ambiguous
Eventing Current text:
If the event source terminates a subscription unexpectedly, a
SubscriptionEnd SOAP message SHOULD be sent to the endpoint reference
indicated when the subscription was created (see 4.1 Subscribe). This
endpoint reference MUST refer to an endpoint that supports the
SubscriptionEndPortType portType.
Proposal:
If the event source terminates a subscription unexpectedly and the
wse:EndTo EPR was present in the Subscribe message for that subscription
(see 4.1 Subscribe), the SubscriptionEnd message MUST be sent to the
endpoint referenced by that EPR unless the event source is incapable of
transmitting any messages at all.
I understand that the proposed change is to narrow the scope of
exception to the requirement. However, I also feel that MUST + exception
= SHOULD.
I think MUST always means "absolute requirement" which may not be
achieved by a conformant implementation due to unforeseen situations.
If we adopt the proposal, should we also check exceptions to all MUST?
For example, the (unless .... incapable ...) seems applicable to the
following requirement in WS-E 4.1 as well:
[Body]/wse:Subscribe/wse:Delivery/wse:NotifyTo
This is an OPTIONAL element. When present, this element indicates that
notifications MUST be sent to the EndpointReference identified by this
element.
I think it's better to just say MUST without any exception, or use
SHOULD, but not the mixed.
Thanks.
Li
----- Message from Gilbert Pilz <gilbert.pilz@oracle.com<mailto:gilbert.pilz@oracle.com>> on Tue, 5 Jan 2010 14:24:57 -0800 -----
To:
Ram Jeyaraman <Ram.Jeyaraman@microsoft.com<mailto:Ram.Jeyaraman@microsoft.com>>
cc:
"public-ws-resource-access@w3.org<mailto:public-ws-resource-access@w3.org>" <public-ws-resource-access@w3.org<mailto:public-ws-resource-access@w3.org>>
Subject:
Re: [Bug 8286] New: description of Subscription End ambiguous
This is unacceptable because the Subscriber/Event Sink has no way of knowing if SubscriptionEnd is supported. It supplies an EndTo EPR, the Subscribe request succeeds, it gets some Notifications, then the subscription terminates unexpectedly (something it doesn't know about), then . . . nothing.
If support for SubscriptionEnd is really optional (something I don't remember to agreeing to - but my memory is shot), then it seems to me that we should:
1.) Define a new fault for a Subscribe message that includes an EndTo EPR along the lines of wse:SubscriptionEndNotSupported.
2.) Add a parameter to the wse:EventSource policy assertion that indicates support for SubscriptionEnd.
- gp
On 1/3/2010 9:17 AM, Ram Jeyaraman wrote:
I agree with this proposal except for the part where support for the SubscriptionEnd operation is required. During our earlier conversations, we determined that support for the SubscriptionEnd operation is optional for the Event Source. Given that, I suggest an amended proposal (change MUST to MAY):
"If the event source terminates a subscription unexpectedly and the wse:EndTo EPR was present in the Subscribe message for that subscription (see 4.1 Subscribe), the SubscriptionEnd message MAY be sent to the endpoint referenced by that EPR. The message MUST be of the following form:"
-----Original Message-----
From: public-ws-resource-access-notifications-request@w3.org<mailto:public-ws-resource-access-notifications-request@w3.org> [mailto:public-ws-resource-access-notifications-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of bugzilla@wiggum.w3.org<mailto:bugzilla@wiggum.w3.org>
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 1:44 PM
To: public-ws-resource-access-notifications@w3.org<mailto:public-ws-resource-access-notifications@w3.org>
Subject: [Bug 8286] New: description of Subscription End ambiguous
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8286
Summary: description of Subscription End ambiguous
Product: WS-Resource Access
Version: PR
Platform: All
OS/Version: All
Status: NEW
Severity: normal
Priority: P2
Component: Eventing
AssignedTo: public-ws-resource-access-notifications@w3.org<mailto:public-ws-resource-access-notifications@w3.org>
ReportedBy: gilbert.pilz@oracle.com<mailto:gilbert.pilz@oracle.com>
QAContact: public-ws-resource-access-notifications@w3.org<mailto:public-ws-resource-access-notifications@w3.org>
Section 4.5 "Subscription End" starts with the following paragraph:
"If the event source terminates a subscription unexpectedly, SubscriptionEnd SOAP message SHOULD be sent to the endpoint reference indicated when the subscription was created (see 4.1 Subscribe). This endpoint reference MUST refer to an endpoint that supports the SubscriptionEndPortType portType. The message MUST be of the following form:"
The "SHOULD" in this sentence is ambiguous. Does it refer to the act of transmitting the message or does it refer to where the message is transmitted?
In both cases this should be a "MUST"; the SubscriptionEnd message MUST be transmitted, and it MUST be transmitted to the endpoint referenced by the EndTo EPR.
The sentence "This endpoint reference MUST refer to an endpoint that supports the SubscriptionEndPortType portType" is inappropriate and redundant; this is a constraint on the event sink, not the event source. This same constraint is already documented in the description of /wse:Subscribe/wse:EndTo.
Proposal: replace the above paragraph with the following:
"If the event source terminates a subscription unexpectedly and the wse:EndTo EPR was present in the Subscribe message for that subscription (see 4.1 Subscribe), the SubscriptionEnd message MUST be sent to the endpoint referenced by that EPR. The message MUST be of the following form:"
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Received on Thursday, 14 January 2010 20:31:49 UTC