RE: [Bug 6692] New: Remove Mode from the specification

> But, the real question to me is whether any of the things
> mentioned in Asir's note cannot be achieved thru the use of
> the NotifyTo EPR, the new Format element, the Notification
> WSDL [1] and WS-Policy. It sure seems like it can.

Let us help you pushback more effectively ...

That is, pushback and convince (a) hundreds of developers who implemented and interop tested the WS-Eventing interop surface (b) several communities (such as devices, management and telecom) that have taken dependencies on WS-Eventing and (c) tens of W3C Member organizations that discussed and agreed on the WS-RA WG charter. You need to provide sufficient information to explain how all of the delivery semantics can be represented in an EPR (or whatever metadata languages that you may choose to). You should also provide some evidence that you implemented WS-Eventing using the proposed mechanism and interop tested it.

Regards,

Asir S Vedamuthu
Microsoft Corporation

From: Doug Davis [mailto:dug@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 5:50 AM
To: Bob Freund
Cc: Asir Vedamuthu; public-ws-resource-access@w3.org; public-ws-resource-access-request@w3.org
Subject: Re: [Bug 6692] New: Remove Mode from the specification


But, the real question to me is whether any of the things mentioned in Asir's note can not be achieved thru the use of the NotifyTo EPR, the new Format element, the Notification WSDL [1] and WS-Policy.  It sure seems like it can.  Before we invent something new (and leave the boundaries of our existing infrastructure) I'd like to have a clear use-case that can not be supported.  Saying we have to keep Betamax  around just because its there isn't much of a selling point  :-)

[1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ws-resource-access/2009Mar/0127.html

thanks
-Doug
______________________________________________________
STSM |  Standards Architect  |  IBM Software Group
(919) 254-6905  |  IBM 444-6905  |  dug@us.ibm.com
The more I'm around some people, the more I like my dog.

Bob Freund <bob@freunds.com>
Sent by: public-ws-resource-access-request@w3.org

03/30/2009 07:31 AM

To

Asir Vedamuthu <asirveda@microsoft.com>

cc

"public-ws-resource-access@w3.org" <public-ws-resource-access@w3.org>

Subject

Re: [Bug 6692] New: Remove Mode from the specification







WS-Man uses delivery mode as an extension point and defines additional modes beyond Push:
they are:
PushWithAck
Batched
Pull
So it seems that this extensibility point is useful, but I wonder if we ought to define some of them or if we ought to simply leave a general extensibility point for any use whatsoever, be it Push or otherwise.
Also, if eventing were to be composed with MC, then a polled mode (in effect) would be accomplished without its explicit definition, which would then work with the WS-Man style Batched as well as PushWithAck to, in effect, also make them polled modes.  The combination of ideas such as envelope contents (Batched) as well as transport characteristics (polled or not, addressable or not, acknowledged or not) as well as other behavior such as the use of faults in some delivery modes to implicitly cancel a subscription should an event be overly large, seems a bit perverse at least to me.
-bob

On Mar 29, 2009, at 10:59 PM, Asir Vedamuthu wrote:

Last week, on the WG conference call, I mentioned that we will provide some clarity on the concept of delivery mode (in WS-Eventing) and related use cases.

Delivery mode [1] provides a subscriber with a mechanism to specify the means by which an event is delivered. Delivery mode is represented as a URI in a Subscribe message [2]. The semantics indicated by a delivery mode are:

1)  Rules for the delivery of events
a)  Semantics and lifecycle of a Notification delivery
b)  Message Exchange Pattern used (One-way, Request-Response, etc.) and how the delivery mode binds to those Message Exchange Patterns
c)  Format of a response (if any)
d)  Configuration parameters or context data (if any) to support the Message Exchange Pattern
e)  Rules for the delivery or other disposition of faults generated during a Notification delivery
2)  Delivery mode specific protocol information (if any) to guarantee interop
3)  Supported delivery formats.

Some portion of the above semantics are captured by an EPR, in a machine-readable form, but certainly not all. So, there is value added by a formal mechanism to indicate a delivery mode.

The delivery mode is an extension point in WS-Eventing. The WS-Eventing specification defines a single built-in delivery mode, Push Mode. Other delivery modes may be important for external groups or other W3C Working Groups and are delegated to those groups. This is similar to SOAP Bindings. The W3C XML Protocol WG defined SOAP Protocol Binding Framework as an extension point and a concrete binding, SOAP HTTP Binding (is also identified using a URI [3]). Other groups defined SOAP bindings such as SOAP-over-JMS and SOAP-over-UDP.

The DMTF WS-Management WG defined three new delivery modes [4] and these delivery modes have been widely adopted.

Furthermore, based on the WS-RA WG charter [5], the WG deliverables need to satisfy the following requirements as well:

1)  Charter scope - "Mechanisms to allow a subscriber to specify the means by which an event is delivered and the definition of a push-based delivery mode".
2)  Charter scope - "In order to avoid disrupting the interoperability of existing implementations, WS-MetadataExchange<http://www.w3.org/Submission/2008/SUBM-WS-MetadataExchange-20080813/>, WS-Transfer<http://www.w3.org/Submission/2006/SUBM-WS-Transfer-20060927/>, WS-Eventing<http://www.w3.org/Submission/2006/SUBM-WS-Eventing-20060315/>and WS-Enumeration<http://www.w3.org/Submission/2006/SUBM-WS-Enumeration-20060315/> should remain compatible with protocols and formats that depend on them, and offer a smooth migration path from the submission to the standard." We are aware of two dependant protocols - DPWS [6] (uses Push Mode) and WS-Management [4] (uses Push Mode and, as mentioned before, defines three new delivery modes).

[1] http://www.w3.org/Submission/WS-Eventing/#Delivery_Modes
[2] http://www.w3.org/Submission/WS-Eventing/#Subscribe
[3] http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/REC-soap12-part2-20030624/#http-bindname
[4] http://www.dmtf.org/standards/published_documents/DSP0226.pdf - Section 7
[5] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/ws-ra-charter.html#scope
[6] http://specs.xmlsoap.org/ws/2006/02/devprof/

We hope this helps.

Regards,

Asir S Vedamuthu
Microsoft Corporation

-----Original Message-----
From: public-ws-resource-access-notifications-request@w3.org<mailto:public-ws-resource-access-notifications-request@w3.org> [mailto:public-ws-resource-access-notifications-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of bugzilla@wiggum.w3.org<mailto:bugzilla@wiggum.w3.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 8:37 AM
To: public-ws-resource-access-notifications@w3.org<mailto:public-ws-resource-access-notifications@w3.org>
Subject: [Bug 6692] New: Remove Mode from the specification

http://www.w3..org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6692<http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6692>

           Summary: Remove Mode from the specification
           Product: WS-Resource Access
           Version: CR
          Platform: PC
        OS/Version: All
            Status: NEW
          Severity: major
          Priority: P2
         Component: Eventing
        AssignedTo: public-ws-resource-access-notifications@w3.org<mailto:public-ws-resource-access-notifications@w3.org>
        ReportedBy: david.Snelling@UK.Fujitsu.com<mailto:david.Snelling@UK.Fujitsu.com>
         QAContact: public-ws-resource-access-notifications@w3.org<mailto:public-ws-resource-access-notifications@w3.org>


The concept of Mode is redundant in the current version of the specification.
All events can be thought of as being delivered. There is no actual definition
of "Push Mode" and no other recommended modes. We even have a MakeConnection
strategy to allow clients behind NATs to fetch events. Likewise, strategies for
complex queuing and distribution are supportable without adding additional
modes and are outside the scope of this specification.

Proposal: Remove /s:Envelope/s:Body/*/wse:Delivery/@Mode from the specification
and all references to Push Mode. A simple explanation of the delivery idea and
a pointer to some of the techniques available will be needed.


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