- From: Alex Komoroske <komoroske@google.com>
- Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2012 16:08:53 -0800
- To: frozenice <frozenice@frozenice.de>
- Cc: public-webplatform@w3.org
- Message-ID: <CAPwaZpU=0YpMkremDv=6eu_ZWGOzo7audmc0XpAG5Oj2E+1sjw@mail.gmail.com>
+1 to adding a note about it. On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 12:48 PM, frozenice <frozenice@frozenice.de> wrote: > Ah, awesome. Guess I'll have to try it. > > Maybe we should add a note about that to WPD:Meetings (if there's nothing > against promoting Skype). > > > On 06.11.2012 21:24, Sιbastien Desbenoit wrote: > >> Skype works perfectly for me from France. You just have to add the +1 >> before the toll free number. No charge, everything is ok. >> >> Le 6 nov. 2012 ΰ 21:21, frozenice <frozenice@frozenice.de> a ιcrit : >> >> Hmm, don't know about skype and international accounts / calls. Don't >>> know about fees, never used it. :/ >>> >>> Maybe someone who knows can chime in. >>> >>> On 06.11.2012 21:13, Jonathan Garbee wrote: >>> >>>> You can use Skype to call in and it should be toll free even using >>>> that. It is how I have been calling in the past two weeks. >>>> >>>> -Garbee >>>> >>>> On 11/6/2012 3:04 PM, frozenice wrote: >>>> >>>>> Have there ever been thoughts about switching the TelCon to VoIP? >>>>> Tuning in from Germany I have two issues: telephone fees and voice quality. >>>>> >>>>> If we would use something like Mumble [1] then international >>>>> participants wouldn't need to worry about their telephone bill and would be >>>>> able to understand people more clearly >>>>> (anyone who tried Mumble has to love the voice quality there). I guess >>>>> most people own a headset for Skype / Teamspeak / similar anyway. >>>>> >>>>> There are also free iOS/Android apps for Mumble, so people can still >>>>> join if they aren't near a computer (provided they have a compatible >>>>> device). >>>>> >>>>> If any folks want to give Mumble a try, you can connect to >>>>> frozenice.de port 33445 (no password needed, Server is in Germany). >>>>> You might need to bring someone to talk to along ;) >>>>> Else there's a server loopback test mode in your options. >>>>> >>>>> Mumble authentication (if someone wants to register) is based on >>>>> certificates, you can also bring along your own valid cert you use for >>>>> S/MIME for example, if not your client >>>>> will generate a self-signed cert. >>>>> >>>>> Mumble could also be used at anytime, for spontaneous meetings and >>>>> such, maybe even some people like to hang around. >>>>> >>>>> Just saying, I think it would be nice, but that's just my opinion. >>>>> >>>>> [1] http://mumble.sourceforge.net/ (yes, it's open-source!) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 06.11.2012 19:15, Alex Komoroske wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Great meeting today! >>>>>> >>>>>> Here are the action items: >>>>>> >>>>>> As a reminder, *action items are expected to be completed by the next >>>>>> meeting (Tuesday)*. >>>>>> >>>>>> ACTION: jkomoros to implement the above stuff about attributes >>>>>> ACTION: Paul to talk to Alexis about CanIUse data license and use on >>>>>> WPD. >>>>>> ACTION: Paul to do further investigation into feasibility of markdown >>>>>> tool >>>>>> ACTION: Peter to write up formal debrief of Adobe doc sprint >>>>>> ACTION: shepazu to write up a guide on how to do translations by hand >>>>>> and send e-mails to the list >>>>>> ACTION: shepazu to document how the translation workflow should work >>>>>> and send to the list >>>>>> ACTION: scottrowe to write up a proposal for flow-chart/organization >>>>>> of architecture >>>>>> ACTION: shepazu to lock it down so that only admins can move pages >>>>>> ACTION: Julee to set up content architecture meetings for the next >>>>>> few weeks >>>>>> ACTION: Scott to add the upcoming WPD Google hackathon >>>>>> ACTION: shepazu to approach Event Apart/John Alsup folks about doing >>>>>> a WPD docsprint >>>>>> ACTION: Alex to send out a doodle poll about a template-guru seminar >>>>>> ACTION: Garbee to flesh out the todo proposal, including wireframes, >>>>>> open questions, etc. >>>>>> ACTION: Doug to make progress towards hosting skin on GitHub >>>>>> ACTION: Shepazu to post a proposal to the list about the different >>>>>> options for title >>>>>> >>>>>> And here are the full notes: >>>>>> >>>>>> jkomoros: scribe: jkomoros >>>>>> [09:06am] jkomoros: Topic: Review last week's action items >>>>>> [09:06am] jkomoros: ACTION: Janet to propose a page where people keep >>>>>> track of what they're currently working on >>>>>> [09:06am] HammHetfield joined the chat room. >>>>>> [09:06am] jkomoros: jkomoros: Janet did do this >>>>>> [09:06am] jkomoros: julee_: No response to the thread >>>>>> [09:07am] paul_irish: http://docs.webplatform.org/** >>>>>> wiki/WPD:Current_activity<http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/WPD:Current_activity> >>>>>> [09:07am] chris9911 joined the chat room. >>>>>> [09:07am] jkomoros: paul_irish: There's a straw man there with an >>>>>> example. A few people chimed in on the thread, and that's as far as got. >>>>>> [09:07am] jkomoros: ACTION: jkomoros to explain use of merge >>>>>> candidate flag on the page. >>>>>> [09:07am] jkomoros: jkomoros: done, on WPD:Flags/Merge_Candidate >>>>>> [09:08am] jkomoros: ACTION: Garbee to write up proposal for tracking >>>>>> of TODOs on site and send for comment. >>>>>> [09:08am] jkomoros: Garbee: Done. >>>>>> [09:08am] jkomoros: ACTION: jkomoros to implement the above stuff >>>>>> about attributes >>>>>> [09:08am] jkomoros: jkomoros: Not done. I will plan to tackle on >>>>>> Friday >>>>>> [09:08am] jkomoros: NEWACTION: jkomoros to implement the above stuff >>>>>> about attributes >>>>>> [09:08am] jkomoros: OLDACTION: Paul to talk to Alexis about CanIUse >>>>>> data license and use on WPD. >>>>>> [09:08am] jkomoros: paul_irish: Incomplete >>>>>> [09:08am] jkomoros: NEWACTION: Paul to talk to Alexis about CanIUse >>>>>> data license and use on WPD. >>>>>> [09:09am] jkomoros: ACTION: Paul to re-open markdown syntax ticket >>>>>> and restart discussion >>>>>> [09:09am] jkomoros: paul_irish: Garbee reopened it and >>>>>> discussion.Discussion tracked along the lines of, "awesome to do client >>>>>> side, but we need to go in both directions." >>>>>> [09:09am] David_Bradbury joined the chat room. >>>>>> [09:09am] jkomoros: We need to translate wikimarkup back into >>>>>> markdown, and that part is hard to do. Needs more exploration >>>>>> [09:09am] jkomoros: I will do more exploration >>>>>> [09:10am] jkomoros: ACTION: Paul to do further investigation into >>>>>> feasibility of markdown tool >>>>>> [09:10am] leaverou joined the chat room. >>>>>> [09:10am] jkomoros: Topic: Docsprint Debrief >>>>>> [09:10am] jkomoros: PeterLubbers: Great event. About 120 people >>>>>> signed up. Only had space for about 50. we figured there would be a number >>>>>> of no-shows. >>>>>> [09:10am] jkomoros: at the peak we had between 50 and 60 in the >>>>>> room. >>>>>> [09:11am] shepazu: (why markdown rather than wysiwyg?) >>>>>> [09:11am] jkomoros: We opened 34 new accounts. Maybe 60-70% of new >>>>>> folks >>>>>> [09:11am] Garbee: Markdown is what most seem to like to write in >>>>>> more. I'd guess due to GitHub. >>>>>> [09:11am] jkomoros: and a number of very experienced folks, >>>>>> including some with MediaWiki experence >>>>>> [09:11am] jkomoros: HUGE thanks to Adobe. Really successful. >>>>>> [09:11am] jkomoros: they provided breakfast, lunch, dinner, drinks, >>>>>> and the space. >>>>>> [09:11am] Garbee: We actually need to discuss that more, since I >>>>>> learned this week we can use some real HTML markup, so that would be the >>>>>> preferred way to go I think. >>>>>> [09:12am] jkomoros: and nice shwag. T-shirts and some nice >>>>>> notebooks. >>>>>> [09:12am] jkomoros: we have more t-shirts coming. >>>>>> [09:12am] cgoodman joined the chat room. >>>>>> [09:12am] jkomoros: I'll do a more formal writeup >>>>>> [09:12am] jkomoros: I went through all of the history logs, we go >>>>>> through over 800 committs! >>>>>> [09:12am] jkomoros: ACTION: Peter to write up formal debrief of Adobe >>>>>> doc sprint >>>>>> [09:12am] jkomoros: lead of Sencha spent all day working on SVG >>>>>> filter documentation >>>>>> [09:13am] David_Bradbury: I'd avoid WYSIWYG if we can. We should >>>>>> encourage clean markup here just as we would in our actual code >>>>>> [09:13am] jkomoros: we started at 9:30 and ended around 5, and >>>>>> majority were there the whole day >>>>>> [09:13am] jkomoros: no major issues. No 503 errors, for examples. >>>>>> [09:13am] Garbee: WYSIWYG is actually needed. Since we want the >>>>>> lowest barrier to entry possible. >>>>>> [09:13am] jkomoros: a number of developers wanted to be able to >>>>>> send pull requests for CSS/site >>>>>> [09:13am] jkomoros: others wanted to make the developers more >>>>>> interactive. >>>>>> [09:14am] jkomoros: last night one of them sent summary e-mail to >>>>>> the group. Cool prototypes--everyone should check them out. >>>>>> [09:14am] jkomoros: for this hackathon, Scott Rowe created a doc >>>>>> sprint tracking sheet. It worked pretty well. People could claim the areas >>>>>> they were working on so they wouldn't >>>>>> step on each other's toes >>>>>> [09:15am] mike5w3c left the chat room. (Quit: mike5w3c) >>>>>> [09:15am] jkomoros: definitely having a tool LIKE this is important >>>>>> for future docsprints >>>>>> [09:15am] Garbee: http://bit.ly/YDdTU2 --Link to spreadsheet. >>>>>> [09:16am] paul_irish: jkomoros: one of the guys there was an expert >>>>>> in mediawiki bots. he wrote one that looked at recent new/moved pages and >>>>>> flag ones that dont follow URL >>>>>> guidelines we set. e.g. if the HTML was uppercase, it'd flag it. He >>>>>> was gonna post to list but didn't just yet >>>>>> [09:17am] jswisher joined the chat room. >>>>>> [09:17am] jkomoros: PeterLubbers: Part of the point of these events >>>>>> is the on boarding process to get new people involved. >>>>>> [09:18am] mdel joined the chat room. >>>>>> [09:18am] jkomoros: topic: Translations >>>>>> [09:19am] jkomoros: jkomoros: At the docsprint, NotTomato found a lot >>>>>> of pages that were translations and flagged them >>>>>> [09:19am] jkomoros: shepazu: We wanted to have translations at >>>>>> launch. But the mediawiki extensions weren't suitable. They had a bad >>>>>> workflow and changed content around in original >>>>>> article. >>>>>> [09:20am] jkomoros: The same people that helped us with comments >>>>>> extension and others, we've been talking with them about doing a >>>>>> translation extension. There are also folks from >>>>>> Wikipedia who are interested. >>>>>> [09:20am] jkomoros: in the meantime we could simply allow people to >>>>>> create translations using the convention we're going to follow >>>>>> [09:20am] jkomoros: so if someone would want to do a spanish >>>>>> article, they could take the original article, add a "/es" to the end of >>>>>> the URL and do a translation there. >>>>>> [09:21am] jkomoros: to keep them current, we need to have an >>>>>> indicator on the main page about which translations are available, and on >>>>>> the translated page how recently the main >>>>>> page has been updated since this one has been page. >>>>>> [09:21am] jkomoros: *edited >>>>>> [09:21am] jkomoros: and also a new UI. >>>>>> [09:21am] jkomoros: we hope to have it started very soon. This is a >>>>>> common request. >>>>>> [09:22am] chris9911 left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) >>>>>> [09:22am] jkomoros: ACTION: shepazu to write up a guide on how to do >>>>>> translations by hand and send e-mails to the list >>>>>> [09:22am] jkomoros: ACTION: shepazu to document how the translation >>>>>> workflow should work and send to the list >>>>>> [09:23am] jkomoros: eliot: What happens with moved English articles? >>>>>> [09:23am] jkomoros: shepazu: Because they're all subpages, as long as >>>>>> you check "move subpages", which should be default, then it should work >>>>>> [09:25am] mstalfoort left the chat room. (Quit: kthxbai) >>>>>> [09:25am] jkomoros: jkomoros: We need to make sure that people know >>>>>> where to put articles >>>>>> [09:25am] jkomoros: shepazu: What about a wizard >>>>>> [09:25am] jkomoros: paul_irish: We could just have a bot flag these >>>>>> so admins can figure out where they go >>>>>> [09:26am] jkomoros: I want the contributor to be able to contribute >>>>>> very quickly. Don't want them to have to learn about entire IA. >>>>>> [09:26am] jkomoros: So I'd like a way for admins to be able to find >>>>>> new articles and move them >>>>>> [09:26am] jkomoros: scottrowe: I've looked into this. I've found our >>>>>> current URL architecture is very confused. >>>>>> [09:27am] jkomoros: We haven't arrived at an agreement at how API >>>>>> should be built out. >>>>>> [09:27am] jkomoros: I'm working on a proposal which I'll send out >>>>>> today >>>>>> [09:27am] jkomoros: *this week >>>>>> [09:27am] jkomoros: ACTION: scottrowe to write up a proposal for >>>>>> flow-chart/organization of architecture >>>>>> [09:27am] mike5w3c joined the chat room. >>>>>> [09:28am] fr0zenice: just checked, if someone did say that pages can >>>>>> only be moved by admins, that's wrong [sry the quality isn't the best, >>>>>> listening from germany :)] >>>>>> [09:28am] jkomoros: ACTION: shepazu to lock it down so that only >>>>>> admins can move pages >>>>>> [09:29am] jkomoros: julee_: This is why I wanted a con tent >>>>>> architecture meeting >>>>>> [09:29am] jkomoros: so maybe once scott sends that out we can meet >>>>>> up >>>>>> [09:29am] jkomoros: if we are able to document what the >>>>>> architecture IS, then we can reinforce it in the experience on the website, >>>>>> which will help people understand it. >>>>>> [09:29am] Garbee: fr0zenice, If it is wrong then we should address >>>>>> the permissions. >>>>>> [09:29am] jkomoros: If we can have pages that are exemplary of a >>>>>> given type to point people to >>>>>> [09:30am] Garbee: They *should* be only movable my admins atm. >>>>>> Regular users should flag. >>>>>> [09:30am] fr0zenice: then we need to strip movefile / move / >>>>>> move-subpages / move-rootuserpages from Users >>>>>> [09:31am] jkomoros: ACTION: Julee to set up content architecture >>>>>> meetings for the next few weeks >>>>>> [09:32am] jkofoed joined the chat room. >>>>>> [09:32am] jkomoros: Topic: Vibrant use of events calendar >>>>>> [09:32am] jkomoros: eliot: Just wanted to make sure we get a calendar >>>>>> going so we have more than two items on there. >>>>>> [09:32am] shepazu: +1 >>>>>> [09:32am] jkomoros: ideally we'd have a 3 month lead of >>>>>> conferences, doc sprints, hackathons. >>>>>> [09:32am] shepazu: q+ >>>>>> [09:32am] HammHetfield left the chat room. (Quit: HammHetfield) >>>>>> [09:33am] jkomoros: I think that's a resource we can make use of >>>>>> [09:33am] jkomoros: jkomoros: Absolutely. Put things up as soon as >>>>>> you know they may happen. Mark as tentative before the date is finalized. >>>>>> [09:33am] jkomoros: ACTION: Scott to add the upcoming WPD Google >>>>>> hackathon >>>>>> [09:34am] jkomoros: shepazu: It occurs to me that we might want to >>>>>> co-locate a docsprint with a conference >>>>>> [09:35am] jkomoros: or even emphasize conferences that are aligned >>>>>> with WPD, or that give a free ticket to a WPD memeber. >>>>>> [09:35am] jkomoros: eliot: Does anyone have a close contact at Event >>>>>> Apart? >>>>>> [09:35am] jkomoros: shepazu: We've talked to some of these folks, >>>>>> they're enthusiastic >>>>>> [09:35am] Salt joined the chat room. >>>>>> [09:35am] jkomoros: ACTION: shepazu to approach Event Apart/John >>>>>> Alsup folks about doing a WPD docsprint >>>>>> [09:37am] desbenoit joined the chat room. >>>>>> [09:38am] jkomoros: ACTION: Alex to send out a doodle poll about a >>>>>> template-guru seminar >>>>>> [09:39am] jkomoros: shepazu: Ryan suggested maybe Lua to look into >>>>>> [09:39am] jkomoros: Topic: Tracking actions >>>>>> [09:39am] jkomoros: Garbee: There have been a lot of complaints about >>>>>> bug tracker being on separate domain and need a new account >>>>>> [09:40am] jkomoros: so we should ideally bring on the same domain >>>>>> and ideally one with open ID/SSO with main site >>>>>> [09:40am] jkomoros: bug genie has the ability to track just about >>>>>> anything we want to do with the project. >>>>>> [09:40am] shepazu: q+ >>>>>> [09:42am] jkomoros: jkomoros: Want to make sure we're addressing all >>>>>> use cases (e.g. savvy admin changes down to drive-by questions) >>>>>> [09:42am] shaundunne joined the chat room. >>>>>> [09:42am] jkomoros: Garbee: Ideally we'd have a comment system that's >>>>>> plugged into bug system and automatically files a bug >>>>>> [09:42am] shaundunne left the chat room. >>>>>> [09:43am] jkomoros: scottrowe: Does that mean the comments from the >>>>>> wiki could be funneled into buggenie >>>>>> [09:43am] jkomoros: Garbee: Ideally, that's what I'd like. Since >>>>>> BugGenie allows different fields. >>>>>> [09:43am] jkomoros: shepazu: Does BugGenie have a write API. >>>>>> [09:44am] jkomoros: Garbee: Not sure. I'll look into this if we'd >>>>>> need to do custom work >>>>>> [09:44am] fr0zenice: ref: http://issues.thebuggenie.com/** >>>>>> wiki/Category%3ATheBugGenie%**3ADevelopment<http://issues.thebuggenie.com/wiki/Category%3ATheBugGenie%3ADevelopment> >>>>>> [09:44am] jkomoros: jkomoros: This will require a technical expert to >>>>>> be looped in, ideally Ryan >>>>>> [09:44am] jkomoros: shepazu: I agree mostly with what's been said. >>>>>> [09:45am] jkomoros: we do want to have people create accounts and >>>>>> join the community. I do want to lower the barrier for bugs. >>>>>> [09:45am] jkomoros: the idea of having it somehow tie into comment >>>>>> extension interests me. >>>>>> [09:46am] jkomoros: shepazu: I think Ryan is supposed to be back not >>>>>> next Tuesday but the one after that >>>>>> [09:47am] jkomoros: ACTION: Garbee to flesh out the todo proposal, >>>>>> including wireframes, open questions, etc. >>>>>> [09:47am] jkomoros: scottrowe: I've noticed that sometimes I need to >>>>>> save on the wiki twice. >>>>>> [09:47am] Garbee: You may need to refresh the page by dropping the >>>>>> cache. >>>>>> [09:47am] Garbee: Edit tab > Refresh >>>>>> [09:49am] jkomoros: jkomoros: I noticed an out-of-order problem in >>>>>> the history this weekend >>>>>> [09:49am] Garbee: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/** >>>>>> Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19390<https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=19390> >>>>>> [09:49am] jkomoros: Garbee: For session information, it's going to >>>>>> require at least a mediawiki engine update. >>>>>> [09:49am] shepazu: Garbee++ >>>>>> [09:50am] Garbee: I had to combine like 4 bugs into that one session >>>>>> bug. >>>>>> [09:50am] Garbee: They were just annoying to see everywhere. >>>>>> [09:50am] jkomoros: jkomoros: Is there way to make progress on >>>>>> hosting the wiki on github? >>>>>> [09:50am] jkomoros: shepazu: We could host skin on github in the >>>>>> short term. >>>>>> [09:50am] jkomoros: this project is three or four different open >>>>>> source projects, which all have their own contribution paths >>>>>> [09:50am] jkomoros: but there are a few things that we could put on >>>>>> GitHub this week. >>>>>> [09:51am] jkomoros: I noticed there was a web platform on github. >>>>>> Do we know who that is? >>>>>> [09:51am] jkomoros: ACTION: Doug to make progress towards hosting >>>>>> skin on GitHub >>>>>> [09:51am] jkomoros: we also want to host our extensions in a place >>>>>> where people can contribute to them. >>>>>> [09:52am] jkomoros: and just to clarify, we're TOTALLY open to this >>>>>> [09:52am] jkomoros: shepazu: One last thing >>>>>> [09:52am] jkomoros: some people had asked about changing the title >>>>>> for the pages in the wiki for SEO >>>>>> [09:53am] jkomoros: I made an extension that does this, and it's >>>>>> ready to deploy when it will be least disruptive. >>>>>> [09:53am] jkomoros: What I'm proposing as the title content is >>>>>> basically "<page title> : <topic-title> : WPD" >>>>>> [09:53am] jkomoros: "font-size : CSS : WPD" >>>>>> [09:54am] jkomoros: benoit: There won't be Web Platform in the title >>>>>> [09:54am] leaverou: q+ >>>>>> [09:55am] jkomoros: ACTION: Shepazu to post a proposal to the list >>>>>> about the different options for title >>>>>> [09:55am] leaverou: q- >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Nov 6, 2012 at 9:02 AM, Julee Burdekin <jburdeki@adobe.com<mailto: >>>>>> jburdeki@adobe.com>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi: I added an agenda item: >>>>>> >>>>>> Content architecture meeting(s)? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> J >>>>>> ---------------------------- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> julee@adobe.com <mailto:julee@adobe.com> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> @adobejulee >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Alex Komoroske <komoroske@google.com <mailto: >>>>>> komoroske@google.com>> >>>>>> Date: Monday, November 5, 2012 9:44 AM >>>>>> To: "public-webplatform@w3.org <mailto:public-webplatform@w3.** >>>>>> org <public-webplatform@w3.org>>" <public-webplatform@w3.org <mailto: >>>>>> public-webplatform@w3.**org <public-webplatform@w3.org>>> >>>>>> Subject: Public TelCon Tomorrow, November 6th at standard time >>>>>> Resent-From: <public-webplatform@w3.org <mailto: >>>>>> public-webplatform@w3.**org <public-webplatform@w3.org>>> >>>>>> Resent-Date: Monday, November 5, 2012 9:45 AM >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>> I wanted to give everyone a heads up that I'll be chairing the >>>>>> weekly telcon tomorrow (11/6) at 16:00 UTC / 12:00 ET / 9:00 PT. You can >>>>>> find tactical details about the meeting >>>>>> at http://docs.webplatform.org/__**wiki/WPD:Meetings<http://docs.webplatform.org/__wiki/WPD:Meetings>< >>>>>> http://docs.webplatform.org/**wiki/WPD:Meetings<http://docs.webplatform.org/wiki/WPD:Meetings> >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> Agenda: >>>>>> * Welcome >>>>>> * Review of last week's action items >>>>>> * Triage of new bugs >>>>>> * Discussion topics (we'll see how many we have time for): >>>>>> * Docsprint debrief >>>>>> * Translations (hopefully with the right people in the call >>>>>> this time) >>>>>> * Tracking bugs/actions with BugGenie >>>>>> * A seminar about how we've wired up our intricate template >>>>>> system >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Please feel free to suggest more agenda topics that you'd like to >>>>>> discuss. >>>>>> >>>>>> As a reminder, these meetings are open to anyone, although we >>>>>> especially value the participation of active community members. >>>>>> >>>>>> --Alex >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> >> >
Received on Wednesday, 7 November 2012 00:09:44 UTC