Re: Semantically marking up a "checklist" or process

I second Jason's sentiment. The world of process modelling is large and
hairy. We don't want to go down that rat hole ...

guha


On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 7:33 AM, Jason Douglas <jasondouglas@google.com>wrote:

> Yipes.  I thought this thread was just about understanding "howto" content
> pages in a structured way.  Process modeling is a rat hole and way out of
> scope, IMO.
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 9, 2013 at 4:17 AM, Martin Hepp <
> martin.hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Sep 9, 2013, at 1:00 PM, Tallyfy wrote:
>>
>> > Are Wil and Jan members of this list?
>> >
>> I don't know, but I don't think so.
>>
>> > Without prejudice to some work here that may result in a simple and
>> web-friendly spec, I think some organisation to reach the goal of defining
>> explicit control flow would be highly rewarding -  since it would represent
>> a necessary evolution beyond machine-understandable markup and entities.
>> How entities are a constituent of higher level goals and processes is
>> probably the real answer to better search. If not search, they would be a
>> very interesting in terms of knowledge discovery - such as being to ask
>> 'What happens at the Chile embassy [location]?' in Sam's example, to use
>> just one permutation of many possible questions. Bringing all this to a
>> scale such as the web would be very exciting.
>> >
>> > We at Tallyfy can help to define and implement Process markup, but we
>> are one of many others. Is there a way that a project with some
>> organisation can be spawned from this discussion?
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Amit
>> >
>> > On 9 Sep 2013, at 11:33, Martin Hepp <martin.hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> All:
>> >> If you really want to embark into process modeling in schema.org,
>> then you should first become clear about
>> >>
>> >> - whether you want to model processes in procedural fashion (explicit
>> control flow) or a declarative fashion (modeling a set of actions and their
>> pre- and post-conditions), and
>> >> - whether the process models should be executable by a computer or
>> merely documents for human consumption.
>> >>
>> >> Hundreds of researchers have worked on understanding how processes can
>> be modeled in the context of information systems, and the least one can say
>> is that
>> >>
>> >> 1. it is hard and
>> >> 2. quick, simple approaches don't work or don't scale or both.
>> >>
>> >> See e.g.
>> >>
>> >>
>> http://www2.informatik.hu-berlin.de/top/download/publications/fahlandlmrwwz_2009_emmsad.pdf
>> >>
>> >> for a brief overview.
>> >>
>> >> Without excluding others, I think it would make a lot of sense to
>> involve
>> >>
>> >>   Wil van der Aalst,  http://wwwis.win.tue.nl/~wvdaalst/
>> >> and
>> >>
>> >>   Jan Mendling, http://www.wu.ac.at/infobiz/team/mendling
>> >>
>> >> in any such draft. They both spent years of their lives into
>> understanding the challenges of process modeling...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Martin
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Sep 6, 2013, at 10:04 PM, Vicki Tardif Holland wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> I think a combination of Jason's suggestion of
>> http://schema.org/ItemList and something similar to
>> http://schema.org/Recipe would do the trick. The key difference is that
>> you probably want to specify the step number instead of relying on page
>> layout as parsers often discard the order of elements.
>> >>>
>> >>> Vicki
>> >>>
>> >>> Vicki Tardif Holland | Metadata Analyst | vtardif@google.com |
>> 978-613-9630
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 7:17 AM, Tallyfy <hello@tallyfy.com> wrote:
>> >>> "Process" sounds very promising as a purely top-level construct,
>> because any serial process (not related to a "thing" but maybe with
>> embedded references to things) can be wrapped and labelled as an actionable
>> container. http://schema.org/Recipe is the same concept as this, but
>> only relates to food recipes.
>> >>>
>> >>> We subscribe the Gates quote - "the future of search is verbs" and
>> interpret it as machines able to understand not just content, but processes
>> like "How to get a Chile tourist visa for British citizens" - an ordered
>> list of steps. Rankings for processes are also different to content
>> backlinks, which we are working on, as you could define pre-requisites (do
>> this before doing this) and chain processes after (after doing this -
>> continue with this).
>> >>>
>> >>> Could somebody help me propose this as a new item? I have no idea
>> where to start.
>> >>>
>> >>> thanks
>> >>> Amit
>> >>> http://tallyfy.com
>> >>> On Thursday, 5 September 2013 at 17:36, Sam Goto wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Maybe an ItemList (or a specialized subclass, e.g.
>> http://schema.org/Process) of http://schema.org/Action and its
>> subclasses?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 9:33 AM, Tallyfy <hello@tallyfy.com> wrote:
>> >>>>> The list may not be about a specific thing, but a process - which
>> could include many things. For example - the list, "How to enjoy a great
>> Saturday night in" might have a reference to a food - pizza AND a movie -
>> as an entity, etc. Granted, the example isn't the best, but it's entirely
>> unrelated to any specific thing.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> In the composite scenario (which might not even have any linked
>> entities) - I guess there might not even be a thing here at all, it's quite
>> specifically a set of steps with an objective. For example "What to look
>> out for when buying a house in London"
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> So to clarify, this isn't to enumerate objects or things into a
>> determined order like "Top 10" - it's to define actionable things as steps
>> - whether or not there's related entities.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> A
>> >>>>> On Thursday, 5 September 2013 at 17:24, Jason Douglas wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Maybe a new subclass of ItemList?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Aside: seems like ItemListElement should have a range of Thing so
>> you could do structured lists (movies, steps, etc.).
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> -jason
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 2:44 AM, Tallyfy <hello@tallyfy.com> wrote:
>> >>>>>>> Hi everyone,
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> I run a startup called http://tallyfy.com
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> We've just been enrolled into StartupChile, and aim to launch
>> within a few months using their help. Our homepage looks something like
>> this:
>> >>>>>>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14563542/tallyfy.png
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> What we do is allow anyone to embed knowledge as steps in a
>> checklist or a process. Examples might be:
>> >>>>>>>   • How to bake a carrot cake
>> >>>>>>>   • How to change a bicycle tyre
>> >>>>>>>   • What to pack if you're visiting the Amazon rainforest
>> >>>>>>>   • My bucket list
>> >>>>>>> The clearest and most obvious point to make here is that these
>> checklists, when marked up via schema.org would be excellent ways to
>> present answers to questions without people going through many pages on
>> search engines.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> So I wanted to propose a schema for marking up a checklist (or a
>> process).. If there is one already - could someone point me to it?
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> If we could understand that this is a "set of steps for doing
>> something" - I think that would be very valuable, not just to search but
>> for people looking for knowledge which is actionable, not just web pages.
>> In other words, an actual set of steps marked up is more valuable than a
>> block of content (usually using <ol> or <ul> HTML) which blends into a web
>> page.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> We intend to do a lot more - you can measure how many people did
>> a checklist, how long it took on average, reviews, etc. so perhaps those
>> could incorporate into this schema.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> thanks
>> >>>>>>> Amit
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> --------------------------------------------------------
>> >> martin hepp
>> >> e-business & web science research group
>> >> universitaet der bundeswehr muenchen
>> >>
>> >> e-mail:  hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org
>> >> phone:   +49-(0)89-6004-4217
>> >> fax:     +49-(0)89-6004-4620
>> >> www:     http://www.unibw.de/ebusiness/ (group)
>> >>        http://www.heppnetz.de/ (personal)
>> >> skype:   mfhepp
>> >> twitter: mfhepp
>> >>
>> >> Check out GoodRelations for E-Commerce on the Web of Linked Data!
>> >> =================================================================
>> >> * Project Main Page: http://purl.org/goodrelations/
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------
>> martin hepp
>> e-business & web science research group
>> universitaet der bundeswehr muenchen
>>
>> e-mail:  hepp@ebusiness-unibw.org
>> phone:   +49-(0)89-6004-4217
>> fax:     +49-(0)89-6004-4620
>> www:     http://www.unibw.de/ebusiness/ (group)
>>          http://www.heppnetz.de/ (personal)
>> skype:   mfhepp
>> twitter: mfhepp
>>
>> Check out GoodRelations for E-Commerce on the Web of Linked Data!
>> =================================================================
>> * Project Main Page: http://purl.org/goodrelations/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>