- From: Adrian Giurca <giurca@tu-cottbus.de>
- Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 11:21:40 +0200
- To: Bernard Vatant <bernard.vatant@mondeca.com>
- CC: "Wallis,Richard" <Richard.Wallis@oclc.org>, Matthias Tylkowski <matthias@binarypark.org>, "public-vocabs@w3.org" <public-vocabs@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <51A5C8A4.5020001@tu-cottbus.de>
Dear Bernard, Indeed extracting temporal information from text is a complex task. As such, if you consider automatic schema.org data creation, then of course, there are many challenges. However, looking from the perspective of human and machine data creation, i.e. aiming to provide a data format for Opening Hours then I agree with Good Relations because makes possible various combinations. Many examples discussed in paper [3] (e.g, "open from February 15th to 30th", "Open every day in July and August. Outside this period, closed on Wednesday night, all day Thursday and on Sunday night. Opening times: from noon to 2pm from 7pm to 10pm.") can be markup with OpeningHoursSpecification, of course, sometime easy, sometime much more verbose. Just to try an answer to Richard: I believe in this case (and possibly others) the meaning of missing information should be interpreted as negative information (Closed World Assumption). As such when, for example, Wednesday is completely missing from markup, then the machine means "closed". If we will adopt the Open World Approach then the negative information must be explicitly expressed i.e., we need to encode "closed" explicitely therefore a proposal such the one Bernard did below is suitable. Regards, Adrian On 5/29/2013 10:13 AM, Bernard Vatant wrote: > Hi all > > This is a very complex issue. FWIW some years ago Mondeca has worked > in a project [1] involving representation and extraction of temporal > information from Web pages, and singularly opening periods. You have > to deal with the great variety of cases, the incompleteness of > information (if you say you are closed on Monday, does that imply > you're open on Sunday), the fact that information can be expressed > both in positive and negative way (open or closed) etc. This work made > the subject of a thesis, in French [2]. A short introducing paper is > available in English [3]. > > My suggestion for schema.org <http://schema.org> would be to keep the > expressivity as simple as possible to cover the 80% of simple cases > without ambiguity. I remember meetings in this project where the few > present human beings, reasonably well educated in their common native > language (French), were enable to agree on the formal interpretation > of some opening information provided in this same language. If the > necessary expressivity to cover all cases is included in schema.org > <http://schema.org> it will be very difficult for users to understand > and implement correctly, let alone for search engines and other > parsers to interpret it correctly. > > Adding something like "closingDay" might be useful to cover the most > frequent negative expression. > > Best regards > > [1] http://www.projet-eiffel.org/ > [2] http://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/tel-00530785/ > [3] http://www.lrec-conf.org/proceedings/lrec2008/pdf/44_paper.pdf > > > 2013/5/28 Wallis,Richard <Richard.Wallis@oclc.org > <mailto:Richard.Wallis@oclc.org>> > > Hi all, > > I discussed the issue of Opening Hours with a colleague of mine > and I thought you may be interested in her comment: > > So my biggest complaint about OpeningHours is that you cannot > say you’re closed. At least not in a simple way. The only way > to say you’re closed is by using validity dates. Once you use > validity dates then your hours are always in the context of > specific dates. So you have to keep republishing information > and Google etc has to keep harvesting new information in order > to know when you’re actually open. > > > This seems like a problem which is definitely relevant in the > context of the wider web. Example - If I’m 24 Hour Fitness and > I need to tell people I’m open every day all day except > Christmas and New Years, there is no simple way to do this. > > > Have others experienced similar difficulties describing normal > opening hours, except for specific periods when closed – such as > holidays public or otherwise. > > ~Richard. > > From: Matthias Tylkowski <matthias@binarypark.org > <mailto:matthias@binarypark.org>> > Date: Tuesday, 28 May 2013 11:40 > To: "public-vocabs@w3.org <mailto:public-vocabs@w3.org>" > <public-vocabs@w3.org <mailto:public-vocabs@w3.org>> > Subject: Re: webschema-ISSUE-22 (openingHours x2): Schema.org has > two ways to express opening hours [Feedback on Schema.org] > Resent-From: <public-vocabs@w3.org <mailto:public-vocabs@w3.org>> > Resent-Date: Tuesday, 28 May 2013 11:41 > > Dear all, > Maybe the openingHours property in > http://schema.org/LocalBusiness > <http://schema.org/LocalBusiness> should be removed. There are > two reasons for that: > 1. The goal of Schema.org is to create a structured > vocabulary, while the value describing openingHours is not > structured, it is a text content which has to be parsed. > 2. The http://schema.org/Duration is an ISO8601 duration which > is not a time. > > The GoodRelations allows wide solutions to markup opening > hours in a structured manner. Here are some examples from > http://getschema.org/index.php?title=OpeningHoursSpecification: > > > Example 1 > > The clinic of Dr. John Doe a physician > <http://getschema.org/index.php?title=Physician&action=edit&redlink=1> > in London is opened as below: > > > <div itemtype="http://schema.org/Physician" itemscope> > <div itemprop="name">Dr. John Doe Clinic</div> > <div itemprop="openingHoursSpecification"> > <div itemtype="http://schema.org/OpeningHoursSpecification" itemscope> > <div itemprop="dayOfWeek">Monday</div> > <div> > <span> > <meta itemprop="opens" content="08:00:00"> > 08:00 > </span> > <span>-</span> > <span> > <meta itemprop="closes" content="12:00:00"> > 12:00 > </span> > </div> > <div> > <span> > <meta itemprop="opens" content="15:00:00"> > 15:00 > </span> > <span>-</span> > <span> > <meta itemprop="closes" content="18:00:00"> > 18:00 > </span> > </div> > </div> > <div itemtype="http://schema.org/OpeningHoursSpecification" itemscope> > <div itemprop="dayOfWeek">Thuesday</div> > <div> > <span> > <meta itemprop="opens" content="08:00:00"> > 08:00 > </span> > <span>-</span> > <span> > <meta itemprop="closes" content="12:00:00"> > 12:00 > </span> > </div> > </div> > <div itemtype="http://schema.org/OpeningHoursSpecification" <http://schema.org/OpeningHoursSpecification> itemscope> > <div itemprop="dayOfWeek">Wednesday</div> > <div> > <span> > <meta itemprop="opens" content="08:00:00"> > 08:00 > </span> > <span>-</span> > <span> > <meta itemprop="closes" content="12:00:00"> > 12:00 > </span> > </div> > </div> > <div itemtype="http://schema.org/OpeningHoursSpecification" <http://schema.org/OpeningHoursSpecification> itemscope> > <div itemprop="dayOfWeek">Thursday</div> > <div> > <span> > <meta itemprop="opens" content="08:00:00"> > 08:00 > </span> > <span>-</span> > <span> > <meta itemprop="closes" content="12:00:00"> > 12:00 > </span> > </div> > <div> > <span> > <meta itemprop="opens" content="15:00:00"> > 15:00 > </span> > <span>-</span> > <span> > <meta itemprop="closes" content="18:00:00"> > 18:00 > </span> > </div> > </div> > <div itemtype="http://schema.org/OpeningHoursSpecification" <http://schema.org/OpeningHoursSpecification> itemscope> > <div itemprop="dayOfWeek">Friday</div> > <div> > <span> > <meta itemprop="opens" content="08:00:00"> > 08:00 > </span> > <span>-</span> > <span> > <meta itemprop="closes" content="12:00:00"> > 12:00 > </span> > </div> > </div> > </div></div> > > > Example 2 > > The Roots restaurant > <http://getschema.org/index.php?title=Restaurant#Examples> in > San Francisco is opened daily from 11a.m. to 10p.m. > > <div itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Restaurant"> > <div itemprop="openingHoursSpecification"> > Open daily from 11a.m. to 10p.m. > <meta itemprop="dayOfWeek" content="Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday"/> > <meta itemprop="opens" content="19:00:00Z-08:00"/> > <meta itemprop="closes" content="06:00:00Z-08:00"/> > </div></div> > > or > > <div itemscope itemtype="http://schema.org/Restaurant"> > <div itemprop="openingHoursSpecification"> > Open daily from 11a.m. to 10p.m. > <meta itemprop="dayOfWeek" content="http://schema.org/DayOfWeek/Monday http://schema.org/DayOfWeek/Tuesday http://schema.org/DayOfWeek/Wednesday http://schema.org/DayOfWeek/Thursday http://schema.org/DayOfWeek/Friday http://schema.org/DayOfWeek/Saturday http://schema.org/DayOfWeek/Sunday "/> > <meta itemprop="opens" content="19:00:00Z-08:00"/> > <meta itemprop="closes" content="06:00:00Z-08:00"/> > </div></div> > > Best regards > Matthias Tylkowski > CTO Binarypark > > > Am 28.05.2013 13:47, schrieb Web Schemas TF Issue Tracker: >> webschema-ISSUE-22 (openingHours x2): Schema.org has two ways to express opening hours [Feedback on Schema.org] >> >> http://www.w3.org/2011/webschema/track/issues/22 >> >> Raised by: Dan Brickley >> On product: Feedback on Schema.org >> >> http://schema.org/CivicStructure has openingHours, whose value is said to be a Duration, >> "The opening hours for a business. Opening hours can be specified as a weekly time range, starting with days, then times per day. Multiple days can be listed with commas ',' separating each day. Day or time ranges are specified using a hyphen '-'. >> - Days are specified using the following two-letter combinations: Mo, Tu, We, Th, Fr, Sa, Su. >> - Times are specified using 24:00 time. For example, 3pm is specified as 15:00. >> - Here is an example: <time itemprop="openingHours" datetime="Tu,Th 16:00-20:00">Tuesdays and Thursdays 4-8pm</time>. >> - If a business is open 7 days a week, then it can be specified as <time itemprop="openingHours" datetime="Mo-Su">Monday through Sunday, all day</time>." >> >> As part of the GoodRelations addition, there is also openingHoursSpecification which takeshttp://schema.org/OpeningHoursSpecification structures as a value. >> >> The differences should be explained, and perhaps converged. >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > -- > *Bernard Vatant > * > Vocabularies & Data Engineering > Tel : + 33 (0)9 71 48 84 59 > Skype : bernard.vatant > Blog : the wheel and the hub <http://bvatant.blogspot.com> > -------------------------------------------------------- > *Mondeca***** > 3 cité Nollez 75018 Paris, France > www.mondeca.com <http://www.mondeca.com/> > Follow us on Twitter : @mondecanews <http://twitter.com/#%21/mondecanews> > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Mondeca is selected to present at ReInvent Law, London > <http://reinventlawlondon.com/> on June 14th > > Mondeca will be supporting its client's presentation > <http://semtechbizsf2013.semanticweb.com/sessionPop.cfm?confid=70&proposalid=5127> at > SemTech in San Francisco > > <http://semtechbizsf2013.semanticweb.com/sessionPop.cfm?confid=70&proposalid=5127>
Received on Wednesday, 29 May 2013 09:22:30 UTC