[Minutes] VC-EDU Task Force 2022-01-10

Thanks to Our Robot Overlords for scribing this week! But apologies for getting these minutes to you so late - the robots really went wild with the transcribing.

The transcript for the call is now available here:

https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2022-01-10-vc-education/

Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
Audio of the meeting is available at the following location:

https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2022-01-10-vc-education/audio.ogg

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VC for Education Task Force Transcript for 2022-01-10

Agenda:
  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-vc-edu/2022Jan/0000.html
Topics:
  1. IP Note
  2. Call Notes
  3. Introductions & Reintroductions
  4. Announcements and Reminders
  5. Use Cases
  6. 2022 Planning
Organizer:
  Kerri Lemoie, Simone Ravaioli, Dmitri Zagidulin
Scribe:
  Our Robot Overlords
Present:
  Kerri Lemoie, John Kuo, Manu Sporny, Deb Everhart, Colin 
  Reynolds, Learning Economy, Marty Reed, Simone Ravaoli, Dmitri 
  Zagidulin, Matthias Gottlieb, Matt Lisle, Jim Kelly, Sharon Leu, 
  Stuart Freeman, Jessica Ch'ng, Phil L (P1), David Ward, Timothy 
  Summers, Phil Barker, Kayode Ezike, 
  FN34c13859b5487058880f2c6f86247643, Karl, Phil Long, Robert Long, 
  Tayken (LEF), Nate Otto

<simone_ravaioli> :clap
<deb_everhart> happy new year everyone!
Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Kerri Lemoie:  Welcome everybody to the January 10th 2022 
  verifiable credentials education task force meeting at our first 
  meeting of the new year.
Kerri Lemoie:  I'm going to go through the boilerplate stuff and 
  then we'll dig into our agenda.

Topic: IP Note

Kerri Lemoie:  First is our IP note anyone can participate in 
  these calls however I'll substitute contributors any ccg work 
  items must be members of the ccg with full IPR agreement signed.
Kerri Lemoie:  The link to join community.
Kerri Lemoie: https://www.w3.org/community/credentials/join
Kerri Lemoie: https://www.w3.org/accounts/request
Kerri Lemoie:  Do you have a W3 account I'll give you the request 
  link for that and then also is a link to the w3c community 
  contributor license agreement.
Kerri Lemoie:  I'll put in the chat as well.
Kerri Lemoie: https://www.w3.org/community/about/agreements/cla/

Topic: Call Notes

Kerri Lemoie:  Call Notes
Kerri Lemoie:  These minutes and recording of everything said in 
  this call are archived.
Kerri Lemoie:  Archive these meetings here with the link in the 
  chops.
Kerri Lemoie: https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/
Kerri Lemoie:  We use chat or IRC speakers during the call as 
  well to take minutes.
Kerri Lemoie:  The minutes are happening automatically now but we 
  do use a queue system for speakersand what we do for this is when 
  you'd like to add yourself to the queue you type q+ in the chat.
<deb_everhart> I'm not hearing Kerri-- is it just a problem on my 
  side?
<kerri_lemoie> q_
Kerri Lemoie:  Like so and you'll see it added me to the queue 
  and then if you want to remove yourself from the queue if you 
  change your mind or someone else already said what you wanted to 
  say just put in a q-
Kerri Lemoie:  If you are looking for any more other IRC 
  commands.
Kerri Lemoie: https://w3c-ccg.github.io/irc_ref.html
Kerri Lemoie:  Jitsi recognizes this so have a look at this link 
  here.
Kerri Lemoie:  And if by chance you're calling in and not able to 
  access the chat just simply asked us to put you in the queue and 
  we'll do that.
<matthias_gottlieb> I cannot hear you, I  restart, be back soon

Topic: Introductions & Reintroductions

Kerri Lemoie:  Ok next introductions is there anyone you to the 
  call today that would like to introduce themselves?
Kerri Lemoie:  Ok it looks like the usual suspects on here. How 
  about reintroductions?
Kerri Lemoie:  Anyone working on something new or haven't been on 
  for a while and just want to reintroduce themselves?
<deb_everhart> can everyone else hear her?

Topic: Announcements and Reminders

Kerri Lemoie:  Next is announcements and reminders.
Kerri Lemoie:  This is a link to upcoming ccg meetings and 
  events.
Kerri Lemoie: https://w3c-ccg.github.io/announcements/
<colin_reynolds,_learning_economy> Yes, can hear Deb
Kerri Lemoie:  We don't have anything I'm speciality special 
  topics plan right now with the regular meetings and take a look 
  there especially for our Tuesday weekly calls.
Kerri Lemoie: 
  https://www.eventbrite.com/e/internet-identity-workshop-iiwxxxiv-34-2022a-tickets-22092229352
Kerri Lemoie:  Also another announcement is that registration is 
  open for the internet identity Workshop number 3. They're 
  planning to meet in person the spring April 26th the 28th at the 
  Computer History Museum in Mountain View California. Super early 
  bird registration is open now. I'm sure that if things change 
  from it being in person to online I would say they have done this 
  very successfully over the past year. 
Kerri Lemoie:  Checking the queue
Kerri Lemoie:  One of the items in our topics list was to 
  announce Jitsi updates
<marty_reed> LERN meeting this afternoon registration at this 
  link 
  https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/tZYld-qsrTkjHdEX8FS2r0Jusq3zxEhz0inT
Kerri Lemoie:  I didn't ask for a scribe because the 
  transcription now turns on automatically when a meeting is being 
  recorded.
Kerri Lemoie:  It uses Google speech API. We're going to try this 
  out.
Kerri Lemoie:  You probably can see it in the chat.
Kerri Lemoie:  I want to give a really big thank you to Manu 
  Sporny and his company Digital Bazaar for setting this up for 
  supporting it.
Kerri Lemoie:  They've done really great work providing the tools 
  and maintenance for.
Kerri Lemoie:  The tools supporting and communicating our 
  community's efforts transparently and globally as possible.
<simone_ravaioli> IMS Digital Credential Summit (Feb. 28th - 
  March 2nd) 
  https://web.cvent.com/event/00915a67-4e78-492d-bc08-625f3534ea13
<deb_everhart> thank you!
<manu_sporny> awww, thanks Kerri :)
Kerri Lemoie:  Without that I don't know how we get all this done 
  so I just want to make sure that Manu knows that we really 
  appreciate this. A couple of other Jitsi updates.
Kerri Lemoie:  Jitsi version updated to hopefully to fix the 
  recent issues with the latest Google Chrome release. I don't know 
  if you recall that some of some folks are having sound issues and 
  this is fix app.
Kerri Lemoie:  They've added in polls which any of you can do. If 
  you go to the chat and you'll see a tab to the right for the 
  polls.
Kerri Lemoie:  I don't know what we'll use that for yet but we 
  could try it out we could think about it.].
Kerri Lemoie:  Then also other updates include a YouTube video 
  sharing and synchronize playback and also audio sharing from the 
  application or browser tab when doing screen sharing.
Kerri Lemoie:  This is some great improvements and I for one 
  think it's really great that we don't have to manually scribe. I 
  know that's kind of an awkward part of the meeting.
Kerri Lemoie:  We'll do our best if it doesn't make any sense to 
  you we can make edits to the logs.
Kerri Lemoie:  Welcome to our new chairs Dmitri & Simone who will 
  be in the rotation to host meetings and be working on planning 
  agendas.
Kerri Lemoie:  Hey Manu - transcribing is working okay so far I 
  think.
Manu Sporny:  Yeah I so carry idea it's it's it's operating just 
  fine everything's nominal said I'm going to go ahead and drop 
  now.
<phil_l_(p1)> I have no audio and it's likely me (Firefox) so I'm 
  likely to drop - sorry, looks like a good crowd
Simone Ravaoli: +1 On auto-scribing !! Makes it less intimidating 
  for non-native english speakers to join.
Manu Sporny:  Something to keep in mind when you stop the 
  recording you have to also stop the transcriber.
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you.
<timothy_summers> I have no audio either
Kerri Lemoie:  Okay so I see Timothy you have no audio.
Kerri Lemoie:  This is what we're just talking about. My 
  suggestion would be to switch to Firefox.
<manu> If people continue to have issues w/ audio -- let us know 
  which browser version and OS you're using.
Kerri Lemoie:  When you have a chance could you let me know what 
  version of Chrome you're using so I can get some feedback on 
  that. 
<manu> We tested 14 different combinations, but can't be sure we 
  got every combination
<deb_everhart> I hung up and came back in and then I could hear
<kerri_lemoie> If you can't hear please try firefox and then let 
  me know what browser and version you are using.
<manu> We know that Safari and Firefox now work better than they 
  did... we also support dial-in via voice.
<kerri_lemoie> Thanks Deb
<david_ward> I could not hear using OSX Chrome 97.0.4692.71 and 
  had to switch to Firefox.
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you for your notes in the chat and about 
  audio issues. We'll take it from there.
<phil_barker> I hear nothing on Chromium
<phil_l_(p1)> Using Firefox 95.0.2 but no luck -heard "recording 
  is on" announcement but nothing more.
Kerri Lemoie:  Anyone who can hear me please text yes or no.
<kerri_lemoie> Please switch to firefox
Kerri Lemoie:  Is there anyone else who is hearing me could you 
  tell me if you are.
<colin_reynolds,_learning_economy> I can hear you
<deb_everhart> I hear you
Kerri Lemoie:  And the transcriber is picking me up.
Marty Reed:  Yes I can hear you..
Marty Reed:  And I'm on Firefox.
<phil_barker> I don't have Firefox
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you
Marty Reed:  Yeah I did have to switch off of Chrome.
Marty Reed:  Yep.
Kerri Lemoie:  I'm on Chrome version 96.1.
Kerri Lemoie:  This is what I'm on right now.
Kerri Lemoie:  And it's working okay.
<kerri_lemoie> Keri version of chrome: Version 96.0.4664.110
<colin_reynolds,_learning_economy> Working for me on Chrome: 
  Version 96.0.4664.110 (Official Build) (x86_64)
Marty Reed:  Yeah it's working fine for Firefox.
<deb_everhart> I'm on Chrome Version 96.0.4664.110
<dmitri_z> Phil Barker: do you have Safari?
Kerri Lemoie:  Okay.
Kerri Lemoie:  And I we can try again.
Kerri Lemoie:  They wait a couple minutes late everybody let me 
  know if you can hear.
Marty Reed:  Yeah I see a lot of people dropping off and got back 
  come back on soon maybe wait a minute.
<deb_everhart> how about a poll to see who can hear?
Kerri Lemoie:  I may give it a few minutes I'm just going to sit 
  here for a minute and left let this settle down a little.
Marty Reed:  Are there Scooter used to call Dad.
<sharon_leu> I'm on Chrome 97.0.4692.71 and all good here!
<colin_reynolds,_learning_economy> LOL
Marty Reed:  Are there Scooter used to call Dad that that is an 
  interesting interpretation.
Kerri Lemoie:  Yes.
Kerri Lemoie:  That's it.
Kerri Lemoie:  I added and added Apple give audio or don't have 
  audio click yes with imagine the people who are dropping off 
  probably.
Kerri Lemoie:  Adamant.
Deb Everhart:  Well and then just detected the other way around 
  can you all hear me.
Kerri Lemoie:  Yes.
Marty Reed:  Yep.
<matthias_gottlieb> Switch to Firefox works
Marty Reed:  We can have dinner.
Marty Reed:  Going to have to be a little bit more articulate I 
  guess.
Marty Reed:  Yes.
Kerri Lemoie:  I'm going to get going I think most folks are 
  coming back on.

Topic: Use Cases

Kerri Lemoie:  And the next topic is Use Cases
Kerri Lemoie:  Over the past year we collected quite a few use 
  cases in github and then we started using a new template in 
  Google Google Drive.
<kerri_lemoie> link to github issues for use cases: 
  https://github.com/w3c-ccg/vc-ed-use-cases/issues
<kerri_lemoie> Link to the google drive: 
  https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1oim1YsUzBuFBsGbtue_5yfBXEkA8Mp6A
Kerri Lemoie:  I've grabbed the ones that were either sent to our 
  mailing list or we're presented here on this call.
Kerri Lemoie:  In no way is this a finite list but the co-chairs 
  have decided that it'd be best to start translating these into 
  the cases report where we can view them and Aggregate and then 
  make additions and that they're together.
Kerri Lemoie:  So that they're not all over the place.
Kerri Lemoie:  The format of the document we're going to be 
  working on is in this doc:.
Kerri Lemoie: 
  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1O98lt85PS8ozyMtKQMPdZPLnzpNI30bEgYH1Dq-C-IQ/edit#heading=h.a4epu7z5cx2z
Kerri Lemoie:  We could tailor this to meet the needs of our task 
  force.
<timothy_summers> Joining from mobile solved the issue while I 
  update Firefox.
<kerri_lemoie> vc-use cases doc: 
  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1O98lt85PS8ozyMtKQMPdZPLnzpNI30bEgYH1Dq-C-IQ/edit#heading=h.a4epu7z5cx2z
Kerri Lemoie:  Aiming for is to get something for vc-edu that 
  looks something like this.
Kerri Lemoie:  EPC.
<kerri_lemoie> VC Use Cases doc: 
  https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-use-cases/
Kerri Lemoie:  We're going to try and complete this by the end of 
  February.
Kerri Lemoie:  Is going to be helpful to other verticals that are 
  seeking employment PCS but also provide the scaffolding that we 
  need to build out the vc edu model recommendations.
Kerri Lemoie:  It could be that the data model recommendations 
  may not need all the needs of the use cases but it could address 
  what we know at this point in time and it's really hard to build 
  a model doc without some kind of documentation. This is part of 
  our Charter and also part of the work items that we set forth 
  like a long time ago.
Kerri Lemoie:  I'm going to start with that this week so I'm just 
  going to get them in there in some form or another they may link 
  to the actual documents or or what have you been I'm just going 
  to get them in there and then next week we can look at that and 
  take it from there and see you maybe what's missing or who wants 
  to jump in so every week until we we get this done. We're going 
  to start our meetings with these updates.
Kerri Lemoie:  Everyone will be welcome to make comments in the 
  doc and anyone who wants to make even more of an active 
  contribution to it you just let me know and we'll set you up as 
  an editor.
Kerri Lemoie:  The only reason to not just open up and make 
  everyone as editor is just sort of to maintain some control of 
  the flow the process but everyone is welcome to be an editor if 
  you'd like too.
Kerri Lemoie:  And that's what I have so far for use cases and I 
  just check the queue.
Kerri Lemoie:  Anybody have any thoughts about that about that 
  process or any feedback.
Kerri Lemoie:  Simone I see that you were here.
Kerri Lemoie:  Can you hear us okay?
Simone Ravaoli:  And.
Kerri Lemoie:  Oh thank you.
Marty Reed:  Well so I just want to get a feel for how you want 
  to mature the use cases I mean.
Marty Reed:  What wait what is your thoughts on the process.
Marty Reed:  Like two or three weeks is stays open and then.
Kerri Lemoie:  Oh you mean as far as like how long it will take.
Marty Reed:  Yeah.
Kerri Lemoie:  I was thinking it was like a month in so they may 
  be around this time in February that we'd be pretty close to 
  getting this where we need to be where we do a final review like 
  maybe the first week of March.
Marty Reed:  I'm happy to contribute as an editor.
<deb_everhart> I'm happy to contribute
<phillip_long_(t3)> Weird - Firefox didn't work. Chrome does.... 
  (Version 96.0.4664.110)
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you. awesome .I'll add you I know that there 
  is overlap there's a lot of use case writing going on at other 
  standard troops and also other networks like T3 so there will be 
  a lot of that and I'll just bring it in together and make sure 
  it's covered.
Kerri Lemoie:  Dimitri and Simone is it okay with you if we move 
  on to the next topic.
Simone Ravaoli:  To round off the use cases part, we aware of use 
  cases existing in other communities and make sure that we have 
  some consistency. 
Kerri Lemoie:  Dmitri do you have anything else to add about use 
  cases?
Dmitri Zagidulin:  I don't but I'll look forward to it though.
Kerri Lemoie:  Okay.
<phillip_long_(t3)> Happy to contribute to use cases, as well.

Topic: 2022 Planning

Kerri Lemoie:  Simone, Dimitri and I got up to speed on the 
  co-chair responsibilities over the break and we had a chance to 
  spend a little time planning and getting a list together the 
  topics and meeting agendas for the coming year. Because we are 
  also working towards VC modeling many of these topics are going 
  to feed into that but also a part of our charter is to learn 
  about the work that's going on in an ecosystem and help learn 
  from the experts inn our space so we are trying to gather a list 
  of topics where we can move forward on those things.  So this is 
  the list of things right here I'll put in the chat.
<kerri_lemoie> LInk to vc-edu topics: 
  https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NlO4mKV31NWE4RKQ3R_8kVv0AEaz4VkWSW0uLJmPLmI/edit#gid=0
Kerri Lemoie:  And I can open up in my screen to on so I thought 
  we could do is go through this list together.
Kerri Lemoie:  And then after we're done going through this list 
  Simone is going to set up a way for us to prioritize and then 
  he'll get back to us on how that'll work later.
Kerri Lemoie:  Okay you see my screen.
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you.
Kerri Lemoie:  Simone & Dmitri may fill in topics descriptions as 
  we go and jump in on the topics that they're familiar with. Play 
  guy into feeling in descriptions so if you feel like I'm typing 
  as we go.
Kerri Lemoie:  This is the list that we have so far. I would 
  welcome anyone here to add to this list and if you do if you 
  could just put your contact info so we can reach out to you about 
  it.
Kerri Lemoie:  The first one we have is internationalization.
Kerri Lemoie:  Simone or Dmitri if you don't mind I'm going to 
  call on you because I think you both have some specific thoughts 
  there.
Kerri Lemoie:  Type in description.
Simone Ravaoli:  Top of my priorities. I see a lot of work 
  happening outside North America that is connected to what we're 
  doing. Make sure we have liaisons with work in Canada and Europe. 
  Invite them to keep us up to date on development. Hoping 
  auto-scribe will help with this so that non-native speakers felt 
  intimidated scribing.
Simone Ravaoli:  Simone will take a lead in making sure that 
  we're aligned. Reach out to him if you are interested or have 
  ideas or thoughts about this.
Simone Ravaoli:  Switch out.
Kerri Lemoie:  Part of this is probably also considering 
  non-english language.
Kerri Lemoie:  And how that fits into this. Dmitiri, I was 
  wondering if you were looking at that angle of it too.
Kerri Lemoie:  I know this comes up quite a bit in open badges 
  like informing what language is informing the validator.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Sure.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Something like that.
Kerri Lemoie:  Does that make sense to you.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thank you.
Kerri Lemoie:  Does anyone have anything else they want to say on 
  internationalization?
Kerri Lemoie:  Accessibility so there's a lot of different angles 
  in accessibility. This would probably be more than one meeting. 
  Internationalization would be too. Accessibility we have 
  different angles we have we have the angle that it is compatible 
  for folks who aren't able to see or hear the internet etc.
<phillip_long_(t3)> variously abled folks
Kerri Lemoie:  Addressing other sorts of government standards for 
  accessibility. So there is addressing that then there's also 
  accessibility of the technology which we can't necessarily 
  address in VC but there are things that we could recommend that 
  could be done like for instance there are some process using a 
  paper that lead to VCs.
Kerri Lemoie:  Clearly I don't know enough.
<phillip_long_(t3)> Diwala would be good to invite into the 
  accessibility conversation re: technologies.
Kerri Lemoie:  The topic but I know it's critical that we look 
  into and I knew I would like to learn more about it so that we 
  can do this.
Kerri Lemoie:  Sorry to do this but put you on the spot a little 
  bit to talk about accessibility.
Sharon Leu:  Okay.
Sharon Leu:  I think that you described it pretty well there are 
  some rules that I think are important for us to discuss from a 
  compliance with just US regulations. This is really important for 
  the education task force because working with educational 
  institutions means products that they use.
Sharon Leu:  Anything that they offer needs to be fully compliant 
  so I think that's like a key aspect of it but I think like 
  putting aside the term accessibility there is to your other point 
  about what happens when people need to access any of the tools 
  that are created that are against these standards and I think 
  those are all really interesting conversations probably separate 
  but.
Sharon Leu:  Happy to do think about this more once it gets a 
  little closer to that day.
Kerri Lemoie:  Awesome thank you very much.
Kerri Lemoie:  Accessibility / access in the list.
Kerri Lemoie:  John you are in the queue.
John Kuo:  Yeah I wanted to mention accessibility should also be 
  in one consideration of it should be access to technology as well 
  there is the whole 5-way compliance and could regulation stuff 
  and we're taking that into consideration during exercise but the 
  other thing that we're going to be.
John Kuo:  Focusing on not Not everyone will have the ability you 
  know free access to 
John Kuo:  Leverage the technologies
John Kuo:  So we should have at least some standards are 
  guidelines around them.
John Kuo:  For socioeconomic reasons.
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you.
Kerri Lemoie:  Phil Long? 
Phillip_Long_(T3): Yes hi can you hear me.
Kerri Lemoie:  I can hear you.
Phillip_Long_(T3): Okay I just a plus one on that last comment 
  from John and I know you mentioned it is one of the dimensions of 
  accessibility but from Sharon's list of wallet providers 
  conversations with the DiWalla who have primarily focused on the 
  African Community in Nigeria Uganda in that area.
Phillip_Long_(T3): Suggest we invite their cto to participate 
  because they're addressing this at the back end in ways that 
  would be worthwhile for us to hear about. John just alluded to 
  the fact they're trying to do that at the back end of a tln and 
  pocket as well so just a suggestion.
Kerri Lemoie:  That's great thank you and making notes on that 
  Mattr they did something similar like this with vaccinations.
<sharon_leu> We also thought the Tykn wallet gives an interesting 
  approach.
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you.
Kerri Lemoie:  Moving on to the next one.
Kerri Lemoie:  A multiple issuers. the description we have here 
  is recommended practices.
Kerri Lemoie:  Expressing multiple issuers.
Kerri Lemoie:  Example to cooperating universities are issuing a 
  VC
Kerri Lemoie:  Is there anyone that wants to explain that a 
  little more.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Sure I can explain it and so the topic was 
  brought up I think it was last year or maybe the year before by 
  Anthony. Who asked a question on the VC spec on the VC data model 
  spec repository of in the cases where there are two joint issuers 
  not just two different universities can I share the same type of 
  potential but specifically say it's an exchange student and it is 
  specifically two issuers of a specific credential. How should 
  that be expressed in the data model. 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  There are several options.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Multiple signatures is one option.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  I know there's there's been recent discussion 
  on the mailing list about that on the email list specifically.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Option and I over on the links.
<kerri_lemoie> Multiple issuers supported? 
  https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues/741
Dmitri Zagidulin:  The spreadsheets I give a link to the pull 
  request where the original discussion has happened another option 
  is to create a joint entities would still a single issuer but 
  composing consisting of multiple universities so multiple 
  signatures composite entity versus other approaches.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  All of that I should be discussed and decided 
  and we can give a best practice recommendation off what to do in 
  those cases.
Kerri Lemoie:  Great thank you for the explanation.
Kerri Lemoie:  Simone
Simone Ravaoli:  Comment on multiple issuers. Europe does have a 
  use case around joint degrees that are already popular around the 
  EU education area but there is something else in the works. This 
  notion of a European degree being drafted by the European 
  Commission as we speak so the ideally this emergent university 
  consortium that are contributing to the design and issuing of 
  credentials. Therefore we may have use cases coming from Europe 
  targeting this multiple issuers topic more and more. 
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you.
John Kuo:  Might be a t Hird way to handle this thinking about 
  with respect to a credential in that you could issue a related 
  credential to it that's a recognition so that it would be the 
  equivalent so there's only one original credentials and then 
  leverage a relationship they say okay this issue separate 
  University but linked to the initial issuer and considered to be 
  equivalent and they could be presented.
<dmitri_z> that's a great point, John!
John Kuo:  Leveraging elationship that's embedded just just 
  another possible option.
Kerri Lemoie:  Absolutely and actually Simone and John it may be 
  very helpful to put those comments into the issue that us that it 
  was set up by Anthony. the one that I just put in the chat.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  So I actually that issue has been closed but I 
  know that the newly chartered VC data model 2.0 working group 
  actually has is tracking multiple issuers as one work item so I 
  think we should open a new issue with these suggestions.
Kerri Lemoie:  Good idea. I'm making a note follow up on that.
<simone_ravaioli> About European Degree - 
  https://eua.eu/resources/expert-voices/186:possible-scenarios-on-the-path-towards-a-european-degree.html
Phillip_Long_(T3): Yeah just want to point out this sounds very 
  similar to endorsements and perhaps Marty might be interested in 
  commenting on this but it sounds very much like endorsements in 
  the teacher certification round.
Phillip_Long_(T3): Institution to another institutions.
Phillip_Long_(T3): Potential and I just want to highlight that 
  overlap because it's a different use case but it sounds like it 
  is in terms of an implementation strategy comparable.
Kerri Lemoie:  It makes sense too thank you.
Kerri Lemoie:  Moving on to the next one keeping an eye on the 
  clock here.
Kerri Lemoie:  VPs versus nested VC's in education context. This 
  comes up quite a bit.
Kerri Lemoie:  Marty, Phil, and who else were all working on the 
  complex credentials and also has come up the IMS CLR group.
Kerri Lemoie:  I put it here because I think somethings have them 
  figured out but I think we need many more discussions and just 
  more understanding of VP's overall and like how they you know 
  sometimes that people have about VC's what it means if you have 
  nested PCS in terms of identity as there's a lot of questions and 
  a lot of misunderstandings or also a lot of ways it can get 
  implemented that haven't been documented.
Kerri Lemoie:  So it's just a lot to to talk about and we 
  probably should really dig into this and understand it best so 
  that we can figure out what to recommend to folks and so that we 
  can all know what to do.
Kerri Lemoie:  See if there's anyone have anything on that topic.
Marty Reed:  Yes I think a key piece to this 
Marty Reed:  Is the ID of persistence.
Marty Reed:  And how that whatever whatever that object is how it 
  persists beyond the initial presentation the original initial 
  originating issuance.
Marty Reed:  That's one area.
Marty Reed:  Should be your part of that discussion is 
  persistence and then and then to Phil's point earlier.
Marty Reed:  Multiple issuers really embedded issuers.
Marty Reed:  Are really overlays even from a K-12 perspective of 
  the state issuing a transcript on behalf of a district that is 
  authored by a school. A lot of nuance there.
Marty Reed:  Also bring up the transcript is called the 
  transcript supplement or the diploma supplement from the EU 
  perspective.
Marty Reed:  As well part of this are.
Kerri Lemoie:  That's good thank you I just want to say I'm 
  really excited about this Auto transcriber so that we have notes 
  later.
Kerri Lemoie:  Have notes later.
Kerri Lemoie:  If no one has anything else on this move on to 
  credential display logic.
Kerri Lemoie:  Dmitri, I believe you added this one to the list.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Yeah so one of the questions that we often get 
  asked by wallet implementers and by issuers is so say we have a 
  credential let's say a course completion or graduation 
  credential.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And how do we give suggestions on how wallet 
  formats
Dmitri Zagidulin:  The display.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Because at the moment each wallet essentially 
  decides for themselves how to format a given credential.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  But it would be nice to have the ability to.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Help the credential be displayed in a similar 
  way across different devices across different companies wallets 
  for example the open badges that allows an image to be embedded 
  in the credential.
<deb_everhart> comment on this interface-- it sometimes makes my 
  laptop overheat, and today seems to be worse-- I don't know if 
  that could be related to the updates
Dmitri Zagidulin:  So various walls can just display that image.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  There's other issues more complicated than 
  that because a lot of times you need it.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Template you know the name and University.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And some good Explorations about it and this 
  group is well-positioned to make recommendations about it.
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you. Did you also add... checking the queue
John Kuo:  We're obviously struggling with this a little bit as 
  well as one of our Solutions if it's not too much individual 
  credentials play for which we actually are trying to create a 
  standard set of you know ux rules for.
John Kuo:  Your lifetimes credentials to be useful to the user 
  and user-friendly way are not presented atomically presented in a 
  group or a collection so we're trying to create a sort of echo 
  some collection.
John Kuo:  Sports both presentation of the credential by 
  presentation at the u.s. little as well kind of embedding 
  implicit display rules into the business objects collection what.
John Kuo:  Dr. collection there would be for a class you that 
  could be two primary credentials of all 21 would be in Roma 
  credential the other would-be completion natural subjects during 
  the status of whether or not the class was completed.
John Kuo:  Another would-be you know since we have by coconut 
  construction skill credentials all connections with the same type 
  would be the same collection but no they come from possibly 
  different sources how is all that organized The Collection is 
  intended to both support like a group presentation you know for.
John Kuo:  To support some ux play trolls.
Kerri Lemoie:  Smg4 saying that it's great.
<kayode_ezike> Along the lines of display logic is error logging
Kerri Lemoie:  Okay integration with existing systems.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  I'm not sure if I did but essentially it's a 
  lot of topics to discuss on.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  So let's say we come up with credentials data 
  models and protocols how do we integrated with existing Learning 
  Management systems with existing databases running on the 
  University's.
Kerri Lemoie:  Yeah and that's actually a big topic.
Kerri Lemoie:  Like what.
<phillip_long_(t3)> That encompasses university integration  but 
  also HR system implementation for businesses
Kerri Lemoie:  I think we need to do because we're going to have 
  to do some kind of bridging.
Kerri Lemoie:  An example of that is using email addresses.
Kerri Lemoie:  An influential subject IDs and how email addresses 
  are are ubiquitous and well understood.
Kerri Lemoie:  Kathy well into the VC bottle but you know what 
  can we do to make that work in a different things like the DC.
Kerri Lemoie:  Having both email address and possibly print the 
  subject it in the BC so there's all sorts of things to consider 
  there just to start things I can think of my head.
Marty Reed:  Well I don't know if this is right place for this 
  but also when I think about existing system out something about 
  regulatory requirements and.
Marty Reed:  Consider
Marty Reed:  Licensing scenario the the PDF must be visually 
  inspected by a license or specialist in order to verify that they 
  believe that that presentation is true and hasn't been modified 
  so.
Marty Reed:  Regulatory.
Marty Reed:  Is a big topic that will.
Marty Reed:  Emerge.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  That's a great point and I think the next item 
  of governance touches on that as well regulatory pressures.
Kerri Lemoie:  Just before we get there I just wanted to call on 
  Simone who is in the queue right now
Simone Ravaoli:  Well I was going where Dmitri was
Simone Ravaoli:  With connection to the governance piece.
<phillip_long_(t3)> It's both an integration issue and a training 
  issue on the part of these regulators.
Simone Ravaoli:  Another exiting system could be the regulatory 
  environment of the governance and trust of issuers
Simone Ravaoli:  How does that play technically with the 
  integrations piece but also politically the pure governance 
  aspect so there is a connection in the way we think about 
  existing systems.
Simone Ravaoli:  It goes from LMSes to registries that may exist 
<phillip_long_(t3)> Transcriber is having trouble LOL
Simone Ravaoli:  Or regulatory environments.
Kerri Lemoie:  Yeah that's very true actually all around I think 
  that when I put governance in here I was specifically thinking of 
  trust Registries and topic related specifically to VC's and it 
  could be expanded to include this
John Kuo:  For me I'll be this is very closely related with the 
  previous row your governance.
John Kuo:  You know Educational Systems are made up of lots of 
  different fiefdoms and usually there's not a sole owner to even 
  the data that's needed for issuing a lot of these credentials.
John Kuo:  And there's lots of internal regulations.
John Kuo:  Around like who owns the data what you're allowed to 
  do with it so just navigating that Labyrinth being a relationship 
  is with each educational institution and the governance that the 
  institution is going to be a big challenge.
Kerri Lemoie:  We have about 10 minutes left to get through 
  these. .
<phillip_long_(t3)> Data ownership is probably a separate issue
Kerri Lemoie:  Prioritizing is.
Kerri Lemoie:  So protocols.
Kerri Lemoie:  We also talked about this to that much of the work 
  of the VC is about the data model but what about the protocols.
Kerri Lemoie:  And there's a lot of work being done in that and 
  how do we how do we settle on that in education.
Kerri Lemoie:  Dmitri did you have anything where you want to add 
  on that other than what's in the description.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  I think that's.
Kerri Lemoie:  Bridging Tech.
Kerri Lemoie:  W3c email and this is also related to existing 
  systems but slightly different. slightly different though.
Kerri Lemoie:  Same Category.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Yeah I think the combination of existing some 
  systems and row 9 protocols.
Kerri Lemoie:  Yeah okay let's get together in this area.
Kerri Lemoie:  # 11 Is image file handling I think this also ties 
  into the display logic stuff.
Kerri Lemoie:  Do you guys think so.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Agreed yup
Kerri Lemoie:  Also a big  topic.
Kerri Lemoie:  Also the revoking and refreshing of credential 
  status.
Kerri Lemoie:  We want to be able to discuss I think it's pretty 
  clear we have potential status there's different ways of doing 
  that and there's also this newer concept of refreshing.
Kerri Lemoie:  And they're somewhat related.
Kerri Lemoie:  Number 13: context file for VC-EDU
<phillip_long_(t3)> Credential status is emerging as a big topic 
  for the VC CCG, provoked recently by Anil.
Kerri Lemoie:  Something I've been wanting to discuss for a long 
  time which is have a simple contacts file that is specific for 
  vc-edu that could describe an achievement claim in a very simple 
  way. maybe it could be used for other things that aren't being 
  approached by other standards bodies yet. 
Kerri Lemoie:  It could provide examples for those standards orgs 
  who are looking to align with VC-EDU so I'm we like to visit that 
  has a topic at some point.
Kerri Lemoie:  Checking the queue...
Kerri Lemoie:  I think 14 linking BC's and resources artifacts 
  is.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Is also similar to 11.
Kerri Lemoie:  Is that similar to 11? okay.
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Yeah.
Kerri Lemoie:  We'll clean up is this list before we do the 
  prioritizing.
Kerri Lemoie:  Next - Lifehash
Kerri Lemoie:  Billy can hear.
Kerri Lemoie:  II put this in here as really interesting topic.
Kerri Lemoie: https://lifehash.info/
Kerri Lemoie:  I think it's really cool and I'll just put the 
  link in here and I bet there's really interesting ways that we 
  could use this in education, It may not ever be part of the model 
  or anything but it might inspiring in some way.
Kerri Lemoie:  It is way to visually display a hash uniquely and 
  pretty cool looking.
Kerri Lemoie:  I'm not it. There's a video you should watch the 
  video to learn about it more.
Kerri Lemoie:  We're almost there.
Kerri Lemoie:  16 Is working with T3 and LERN on endorsements. 
  Endorsements is something we could use in the model doc and 
  potentially add to the VC-EDU context file.
Kerri Lemoie:  Phil Long, I think you may be the person to speak 
  to this item.
Phillip_Long_(T3): Yeah thanks thank you.
Kerri Lemoie:  Great thank you.
Phillip_Long_(T3): Simply an attempt to try to pull together the 
  different conversations in one place so that we're not having 
  three different sets of them and respective silos. I know it's 
  been a conversation at the HR open Community. I know it's been a 
  conversation here,  a conversation at T3 and for all I know maybe 
  in many others. so I think it would be wise to try to pull these 
  things together and save ourselves some calendar time but also to 
  bring together the different perspectives that these different 
  organizations have as priorities and see if we can't work out a 
  way to make endorsement work for everybody.
Phillip_Long_(T3): You're right that this does relate to the 
  previous conversations in a couple of different ways.
Phillip_Long_(T3): Both in terms of complex issuance and things 
  like that but the standard thing we're thinking about here is 
  really in the context of an individual making an endorsement to 
  another individual's credential to give credibility to or 
  third-party verification for the assertion both corroborating 
  what might be in the institutional issue credential for subject 
  but also corroborating what might be in a self-sorted credential 
  by an individual about something they've learned and and wanting 
  to take advantage of external knowledgeable people for whom their 
  attestation to that ended the subjects ability to do whatever it 
  is,  is reinforced.
Kerri Lemoie:  Okay next on our list us wallet presentations. we 
  really want to do a lot more of those this year. this is multiple 
  teams or countries working on wallet pilots right now and we'd 
  like to get more demonstrations and see what they're doing and 
  how they're approaching of Education credentials.
Kerri Lemoie:  And then number 18 is pilot demonstration  - 
  similarly.
<phillip_long_(t3)> What I don't see on the list is conformance 
  testing - or guidance about test suites.
Kerri Lemoie:  Yeah next week on our agenda, while we figuring 
  out the prioritizing is a Julian Fraichot from Highland 
  Credentials who's going to present on blockcerts and verifiable 
  credentials. We'd like to do keep doing more of those to keep us 
  all in the loop on the work that we're all doing. If you're 
  interested in doing this please reach out to us. You can talk to 
  me send a message to the mailing list, any which way and we'll 
  get you on the calendar.
Kerri Lemoie:  Number 19
Kerri Lemoie:  VC subjects and holders in EDU.
Kerri Lemoie:  I added this.
Kerri Lemoie:  So we have concepts of Guardianship and the 
  differences between like a subject of a credential and the 
  holders of the credential.
<phillip_long_(t3)> Guardianship is its own topic
Kerri Lemoie:  And there's always like some tension in these 
  topics and as with VP's and VC's it seems like this is one that 
  we really should dig into from an edu perspective as well.
Kerri Lemoie:  Checking the queue to see if anyone has anything.
Kerri Lemoie:  Right now I know of at least one project that
Kerri Lemoie:  Is doing guardianship credentials so I can check 
  in with them to see if they can join us.
Kerri Lemoie:  A couple more here.  We really want to just like 
  talk more about PII information, selective disclosure, what can 
  go into these credentials and what should be protected, how does 
  Selective disclosure work, which wallets are participating. So 
  that's a topic definitely we should be talking about.
Kerri Lemoie:  Conformance testing.
Kerri Lemoie:  Did someone else here add conformance testing?
Simone Ravaoli:  I just did Kerri. I picked it up from the chat 
  where Phil mentioned it.
Kerri Lemoie:  Okay.
Kerri Lemoie:  I think your guardianship I think kind of falls in 
  with line number 19.
Kerri Lemoie:  Great.
Kerri Lemoie:  Simone, You're going to work out a way for us to 
  prioritize these and let us know how we can do that.
Simone Ravaoli:  Yep.
Simone Ravaoli:  Exactly. SO I'm going to take this list, massage 
  it a little bit, 
Simone Ravaoli:  Dand turn it to something we can express a 
  preference on ideally order the list in terms of priorities and 
  that's what's going to help us keep the focus of the priorities 
  straight.
<deb_everhart> thanks, great list!
Kerri Lemoie:  That's awesome and don't worry if you're not ready 
  to demonstrate. We'll get to that at some point. It doesn't need 
  to be added to the list.
Kerri Lemoie:  Okay - so that's where we're headed and like I 
  said next week we'll look forward to Julien Fraichot to 
  presenting to us and we'll talk about use cases again.
Kerri Lemoie:  That's great everybody. thank you so much. I'm 
  interested to see how this chat transcription turned out.
<marty_reed> great work!
Kerri Lemoie:  Have a great week.
<phillip_long_(t3)> Cheers
<sharon_leu> thanks!
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you.

--------
Kerri Lemoie, PhD
Director, Digital Credentials Research & Innovation
badgr.com <https://info.badgr.com/> | concentricsky.com <https://concentricsky.com/>
she/her/hers